No.6477
>>6425As a (literally who) dev, I answered your questions as if you were asking about my game
>Is every sprite handcrafted by yourself? yes
>Did you compose your own score? yes
>The story, dialogue, and characters are all your own?yes
>You designed all the combat encounters yourself? yes
>Code your game yourself? yes
>Are you painting/photographing each background asset you use? yes
>then also create your own game enginehave done this, just not for every project
>only use programming languages developed by yourself, don't use third-party software for any part of the creation processthis is equivalent to asking an artist whether they made their paints themselves or they bought them from a store
>and never look at or play any other games in your life then hole up as a hikki for a decade to develop your own unique inspirationok
No.6478
>>6477Tell us about your game devanon
No.6482
>>6369The moral ethics side to AI bores me to death so I won't comment on it
In terms of its impact on games, I view it in the same way I view clip art, pre-made assets and stock images
The more of it you use, the worse the game will be, not necessarily because they are bad by themselves but from the fact the more of it you use the more apparent it is that you don't care
The difference in quality between hand drawn background images and AI backgrounds would be very marginal but hand drawn art imply the dev is more passionate and has a stronger vision they want to realize
No.6488
>>6467I wouldn't argue against the quality of the games but I'd still like to point out his opinion on AI.
After re-reading the interview I probably gotta take some of the sentiment back to say, yeah ZUN did make a point that overrealiance in AI would result in dystopia, but it seems he was speaking more about AI influence over public opinions and choices rather than on artistic choices/workflow, which make sense because the surge of AI art didn't exist yet in 2017, so he must've specifically talked about something like digital/google statistic, voiced GPS or he predicted something like ChatGPT, Grok, Gemini and the like ahead of its time. Then again it's still come off as ZUN simply trying to come up with a dystopian plot and had to intertwine it with corporate laborers, which I don't think were big or widely controversial issues at the time and regardless has nothing to do with AI usage for creation, which is why I completely forgot about the interview. He only spoke about that matter in Touhou 19 and he only addressed in descriptive manner rather than expressing moral stance.
>>6482>hand drawn art imply the dev is more passionate and has a stronger vision they want to realizeIn ZUN's case though it's more like he want to focus more on characters, music, art direction, gameplay etc. rather than dividing more of his focus more on something he has never made himself in the first place, but it's true those AI backgrounds does look less pleasing.
No.6489
>>6468I use AI but don't advocate for it on any principles; overall it's a net negative for the average person, even though it is confronting a grim reality that most people's jobs are in fact, bullshit just to keep taxes flowing and crime low.
I just want to make cute alterations or costume swaps without bothering for commissions.
No.6495
>>6489I find it helpful for generating art references. Dumping in a ton of danbooru tags to spin the wheel is more convenient for finding what I'm looking for. It's faster than searching danbooru 2 tags at a time and filtering through infinity porn and doujin pages for something that might not have been done or posted. Still, even with all the tags you desire and cherry picking the best results, it's never going to be what I want. It instead serves as a "good enough" reference to start drawing and make exactly what I want. And I'm happy with that.
No.6498
>>6468This thread will be "fine" as long as it's monitored so it doesn't become a culture war shitflinging but I do agree that no more of these should be allowed. It's a grey subject that can easily be turned into black or white disingenuous discussion with just some faggot posting bait.
I think in the case for this game, AI usage is overall a nothingburger not worthy of spergouts but I still do not like AI and believe it to be overall a negative thing since even the most meaningless rushed up photobash can lead to some interesting topics as long as they are handmade in some way. With AI, at most you can interpret some kind of prompted theme but that's really it and it renders it mostly meaningless.
But I also for example think that AI is good for the "in-progress" side of things where you use it for references to improve your own manual work skills.
No.6499
>>6495I do a really quick reference sketch on my iPad with ibispaint sometimes and then feed it to Pixai. Sometimes it works great, other times, a total disappointment and waste of time. Not much of an in-between.
No.6500
>>6495>I find it helpful for generating art references.this is a point that gets discussed a bunch actually, and the general argument against AI there is that it often screws up details and so is untrustworthy to use as reference
like if you look at
>>6489 around the knee on the right, it's actually misaligned and looks as if it were dislocated so that's problematic
No.6503
>>6477I felt like it was a dumb bait question that didn't warrant an answer but since you did
Yes literally every indie game dev up to this point has done everything by themselves including ZUN. This is just standard practice for one-man teams
No.6505
>>6500NTA I always agreed with that point of using it to generate art references but I always thought what people meant by that was like messing around with the AI to generate cool looking designs and then drawing something based on that. Kind of like when dad artists let their kids doodle whatever schizophrenic drawings kids usually do and then they try interpreting that into a cool design
Not literally using that for pose references and such that sounds stupid
No.6506
>>6500Well, I can't really draw, so for the same reason I can't do that, I cannot also notice the mistakes, so for my purposes, what I generate is fine since I don't plan on releasing it.
No.6508
File:legs.png (Spoiler Image,3.19 MB,2689x4659)
>>6500>it often screws up details and so is untrustworthy to use as referenceWell yeah, it's AI. However, a reference does not mean you copy the image errors and all. We have eyes. The errors in the image also doesn't devalue the worth of the entire image. If the overall pose is something you like and it inspires you to emulate or adapt to something you have better in mind, then a melty face and eight fingers isn't going to be an issue.
>like if you look at >>6489 around the knee on the right, it's actually misaligned and looks as if it were dislocated so that's problematicFunny you mention that. That's a thing actual artist do.
No.6515
>>6508>If the overall pose is something you like and it inspires you to emulate or adapt to something you have better in mind, then a melty face and eight fingers isn't going to be an issue.the crux of the issue is having the anatomical understanding to see those errors and not copy them, like the artist you post who's applying stylistic deviations consciously
if you know that stuff and you're using it for a very early proto-draft inspiration like
>>6505 said then that's understandable
reference material in general made me think of the lots of nonsense animals, objects, or pseudo-historical pics that get uploaded and clog up search results for people searching for the real thing
No.6521
this truker just truked me
No.6524
The doujins only care about the characters and how they can expand the world. Gamers care about the 1CC.
Twitter users care about how BGs were possibly generated maybe? Also if any of the characters have political opinions they disagree with.
No.6526
>>6523Japanese Twitter either doesn't care or were surprised that AI was used and thought "maybe there is some value in AI?"
I'd look up what Futaba thinks for a more honest outlook on the issue but they aren't raising a stink either.
No.6527
>>6526Are Japanese surprised? I thought that they have known of ZUN's AI usage for backgrounds since GPT Radio Show.
No.6528
>>6477This is literally me.
No.6529
>>6462On all levels except physical, 私は日本人です。
No.6530
>>6527Some are but only very few. Most don't care and are more surprised about the reaction from westerners.
No.6532
>>6531This is the sovl that AI villains want to steal from us.
No.6533
>>6531I think UFO was the last time it had spellcard backgrounds like these
No.6534
>>6531I like this sort of clashing of dissimilar media
No.6535
>>6498I'd add that AI is also ok for placeholder assets for development prototypes.
No.6540
>>6524Some people, particularly westerners, stick to Touhou because of the novelty idea that it's some kind of "purest form of art" because it's just one guy crafting the magical world mostly by himself. There are people dedicated to collecting and showcasing tiny bits like spellcard backgrounds, the different instruments he used, folklore references etc. It's mostly done and thoroughly enjoyed by westerners who treat Touhou as an ideal artform.
So the sudden use of AI, which is the very opposite of their beliefs which they thought ZUN and Touhou also shared, is like a stab through the chest. To some it destroy their narratives but to some others it's simply feel like Touhou just lost the magic they think it has.
That's the sentiment I get from the more dedicated and contributive western fans that aren't just speaking for the outrage or an excuse to jump on AI debacle, or nobodies who just wanna shitpost or argue.
I think it's still rather distinct than the general sentiment of japanese fans and those who share the same mindset like folks grew on 2chan clones and old internet.
No.6551
>>6526I saw Toshiaki say "The international community sure is a little rough because of the AI thing, huh?"
No.6552
>>6551He'd be right. People are being downright hysterical about the whole thing and I think
>>6540 kinda hits at the core of the issue. People making their status as fans of the work their sole defining trait and as usual when the work differs from their viewpoint in any way it's the end of the world for them because they have nothing else. I don't think it's really exclusive to Touhou though, I think you can see it a lot across Western culture, like with Star Wars or Harry Potter and such. The only thing I can think of that gets so obsessive in Japan is more idol culture and Love Live otaku.
No.6553
This is a bit of a schizopost, but this is the best place for it.
Speaking of famous Japanese creators using AI, Kazuma Kaneko is quite the /x/ schizo (there are lots of translated interviews and blogposts available
I had an obsession episode the past month while I got interested in studying his art style technicals) and is responsible for lots of stuff ZUN got inspired by, so him taking it to this extreme is quite monumental. I'm talking "I'd take this to the Touhou esoteric thread if it weren't around an inflammatory topic even I am tired a bit"-tier schizo.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/3360010/Tsukuyomi_The_Divine_HunterReminds me of how I used the 4chan fork of AI Dungeon in the "old" days, and thought how something like this would've been the best use for generative AI. Just endless dungeon rogelike stuff that feels like how an isekai story would go in mechanics and plot - i.e. some things shaping themselves around the very personal.Honestly though, I think Kazuma dropped the ball and got on bad terms with his link to the collective unconsciousness. A dynamic and interactive system is great, but not when the creative process itself is completely outsourced. It gets into complete counter-congruence with subjectivity. There are better ways to make the Demon Summoner Program (and other kinds of mass synchronicity-amplifyi
ng systems
(Touhou would be a synchronicity-amplifying setting, so to say)), and an effective, at that. AI-less eraMegaten would be closer, maybe the closest I can recall. Until I'll finally finish mine, that is.
>>6540>>6551The Japanese just don't have the foul aftertaste and the experience with how awful AI-ing can get because the AI-obsessed people of low cultures don't know Japanese and don't appear on Japanese platforms and circles.
No.6557
I've made like 5 posts saying this already, but it literally does not matter. ZUN is not going to become a vibe coder. This is just outrage from people who don't even play the game and want to weaken otaku communities.
No.6559
>>6557Every single day I wake up thankful that the vast majority of doujin culture doesn't give a damn about western consumers. At most they release promotions in English to try and rightfully milk the gaijin and that's it.
No.6564
>>6553>spoilerCloverAI wasn't it? That was the GPT-2 fork on google colab during early /aidg/ I think. It's been too long. AID was my first interaction with genAI and I also came to the same conclusion on how it's the best use case. Running it as a personal text adventure with no limitations on what you could do and the world would react was the most fun I had with it, and I still do with the current AID derivative. The magic isn't all there anymore since I learned how it works and how you wrangle it, but it's still nice to immerse yourself in. A shame the threads went to shit with an AI schizo making it his dayjob to troll those threads across the site, and everyone else in other places were more interested in chatbots or image gen over a storyteller.
>the AI-obsessed people of low cultures don't know Japanese and don't appear on Japanese platforms and circles.They don't seem to have the same kind of polarized cult-like behavior to it as the west does, which is good since a middle ground can actually exist without being drowned out by pro-skub and anti-skub arguments. The major concerns I've seen is from artists not wanting their styles to be cloned or trained off of, which is understandable.
>>6554This is why you don't use social media. It can't be problematic if you don't care or know what the normals think. For God's sake liking sexy women with large breasts is "problematic", so fuck em!
No.6565
>>6564anonymous rocking that cape while bringing retribution to the norms
No.6568
Bit of a tangent but God, just look at the night and day difference between the threads on this topic on 4/jp/ and this thread here.
as one of the refugees from 4/jp/ it's depressing seeing this is just the future of 4/jp/ now because the mods literally do not care and learned nothing from getting doxxed
No.6594
>>6564>count greythis brings me back...
No.6716
>>6447I genuinely wish he'd do things like the cat in Okuu's spell card again.