No.6370
>>6369You're just gonna use it for concern trolling and to derail the thread, faggot
No.6371
>>6369They were deleted for reading like gossiping /v/ shitposting ("some say") about ZUN "always being grifter". It was purposely antagonistic speech done to shit up the thread.
If you're going to talk about it then talk about it, but I'll clean up the thread if it derails into another wall of banal buzzword stew.
No.6372
>6369
Oh no he's using a tool to automate things oh the humanity.
That's what you sound like
No.6373
>>6372IDK man I'd just think with all money he has why not just hire some megafans to do it for him - hell I bet they'd do it for free just to be in an official Touhou game and people would appreciate it a lot more than getting Adobe's AI to do it for him.
No.6375
>>6373It's against the doujin spirit to have people working for you
No.6376
>>6369Great! Proper usage in reasonable areas, empowering AI and filtering out unwanted people, still doing ZUN art for all the parts that matter. I see nothing but positives.
No.6377
>>6375But farming out the work to an AI by a massive corporation is for the doujin spirit? I really don't understand your point - especially since Ryukishi07 and dai working with him on Higurashi and I've never seen anyone argue that makes those sound novels "not doujinshi"
No.6378
>>6377Garbled up my message - meant to say "BT and dai"
No.6379
>>6377Again, anon, you're being retarded. It's literally just a fucking tool, in a suite of tools, in a program.
Are you saying that its only true doujin spirit to only use GIMP or something?
No.6380
>>6369>a bunch of posts about this were previously deleted for "a complete lack of evidence" It's so gay, that's why I'm leaving kissu. Might as well make "no controversial posts" a rule.
No.6382
>>6377"doujin" just means you publish your own work without affiliation with commercial or publishing company, and even there's exception to that rule, but for some reason people mistake it for pure artistic integrity and passion and anything against that principle soils it.
Sure it's the main outlet for passionate artists but nothing says it forbid creators to capitalize their profit or being the laziest cheap scum (there's a lot of example of this) and this by extension also goes to this "doujin spirit" or whatever people came up with.
No.6383
>>6374Yeah, this is what I mentioned the last time it was brought up. All the discussion about this really smells funny because it seems like outrage for outrage's sake instead of anything substantial. Typical Westerner moralfagging completely missing the point of what's the core issue with a topic and demonizing anything even remotely related to it. My thoughts on the matter is that everyone knew he used them in 19 in Japan and nobody cared and nobody cares now either so why it's at all an "elephant" in the room completely escapes me. It's more like a small coffee stain on the rug and the prudish guest has decided to condemn the house over it.
No.6384
>>6383I don't know what anything here has to do with being "Western" or not, since Japanese artists also cover their stuff with anti AI watermarks. Some in Japan care about AI art usage in Touhou and some don't, they aren't just some monolith you pretend they are.
No.6385
>>6384I don't think any reasonable person cares about AI being used in the spellcard backgrounds. It doesn't make sense why you would. It's not some prominent aspect of the game's identity. It's something that ZUN probably thinks of as a random mishmash of different images so AI vs the typical method of creation doesn't make any difference. Does the spellcard bgs using AI take away from the game in any substantial manner at all?
No.6387
Oh, moving it into its own thread? That's a good idea, I should have thought of that.
No.6389
>>6384His main point is the whole low-effort blind public outrage thing. I rather not see discussion filled with "eugh fuck AI fuck ZUN" low-effort posts.
Of course you can criticize him but it should be done after someone made the point across unless you have another point to present rather than repeating one-line outrage post ad infinitum.
No.6390
the post edittard
anyways who gives a shit about AI being used for background art?
No.6391
what the HECK is concern trolling???
No.6396
>>6390came here to make this post (both lines of it)
No.6397
>>6391It's when you try to sound like you're just worried about something but really you're trying to make other people be worried about it because you're trolling.
No.6399
>>6369Don't like it? Make your own Touhou
No.6402
>>6383I see the tourists over in 4/jp/ doing this too what's with this gaslighting of "everyone knew about the AI used in 19, so you can't complain about it now" bitch it slipped under the radar, it's the first I and everyone I talk to has heard of it. I'm half convinced there isn't even any AI in Touhou 19 because I can't find any evidence of it when I look it up
No.6406
>>6405I'm on the side of "Having heard ZUN's reasoning out I'm fine with him using AI instead of stock photos since it hurts no-one and he's using it as a tool like was intended although a part of me sees the photobashing as an artform in of itself that's being lost overtime in general because boy you aren't going to see actual gorepics being used as textures in a video game anymore and I kinda liked that tbdesu"
I still think Th20 is fun although at the moment hard as balls and a bit buggy, like all the new characters and songs and think people are just being debbie downers saying it
all sucks when imo we've never been so back
I'm just worried about the influx of
those kind of pro-AI people flooding in and making the community experience less comfy, plus the possibility of some artists and musicians I like leaving the series over this
Also this is my first post in the thread and yet you say shit like
>All that you've done is swing around the term AI as if that's enough to make a complete argument, and it's not. No.6407
>>6406ZUN should have known better and not opened Touhou up to this can of worms in the first place but I got to say the pro-AI people here are way more insufferable than the anti-AI people because the former are just hating for the sake of hating while the latter actually have an argument even if it's flawed
No.6408
>>6406Well I can't tell who's saying what, but I really didn't see anyone bring up any arguments on the other side about
why the AI usage is bad. I think it's warranted to be concerned about super pro-AI people, but at the same time the completely anti-AI moral crusaders get on my nerves too.
I think that's a fine disappointment to have that more shocking stuff like corpse01 won't make a comeback or that photographic BGs may be relegated to the vidya history books. But I don't think for Touhou to be using AI in the BGs means that all will be gone from all video games forever. It's more a matter of intention and attention to detail. Those who want to have good photographic backgrounds in future games may still use actual photographs because AI can still be uncanny at times or lack some human intention element that wouldn't make them as pleasant to look at.
No.6410
>>6407>former are just hating for the sake of hating while the latter actually have an argument even if it's flawedIf the thread up to
>>6406 is to be considered, anti-AI posters are just hating for the sake of hating. I'm not even pro AI, I'm just indifferent to it being used the way it's meant to be.
No.6412
>>6407That's a good point, we had a good thing going etc etc
Even breaking it down to the simplest argument. The anti-AI people tend to be artists I actually like whereas the pro-AI people are literally who? Randoms who don't make anything of value and are unpleasant to talk to. If I have to choose one side over the other and I'm acting entirely out of selfishness rather than any moral code I know who I'm picking
>>6408I'm more moderate when it comes to AI believing it can be a tool for artists to use but keypoint is that the artists actually treat it like a tool rather than a shortcut to plop out a product for profit
I was more talking about how ironically the move towards photorealism has meant that we don't get the same kind of interesting use of real-life photos anymore for textures not that its being caused by AI
>>6410Not really, I get the fears and concerns. You can never trust the Corpos
No.6414
>>6407>pro-AI people here are way more insufferable than the anti-AI¥the entire discussion of >>>/trans/23270The anti-AI outrage faggots are 4/v/ cretins that should go back there.
No.6415
>>6412Yeah, I get you should never trust the corpos, but at the same time a tool's a tool. I see people using AI the same way I see people using Unity/Unreal stock assets, a useful shortcut if you need something quick and don't care about the quality or uniqueness of that certain asset, but you better not be filling your entire game with it if you want people to take you seriously.
No.6416
>>6414So pray tell who are the pro-AI people, if we're generalizing here?
No.6417
>>6405>Less than gaslighting, I don't think anyone cares.NTA, but there are those who care and on the western side most of those people notice it (or hear about) for the first time. Saying to them that GPT poster or UDoALG have used AI already but they haven't said anything back then, so their stance is invalid is missing their point. And with how often it is repeated with no further elaboration, I can imagine it becoming frustrating to hear.
You could point out that the fact it wasn't that known means that backgrounds don't really matter at the end of the day, as almost nobody cared to notice it back then. Thus, people don't care about results, as they sometimes claim, because they would spot AI gens, but about label. However, the mere fact of something happening way earlier, but not being noticed, isn't a counterargument to criticism in itself.
>why the BGs being an AI mishmash instead of a photo one matters?Personally, I've started noticing backgrounds, both for stages and for bosses, during playing StB, first for Eiki. It's some painting with people that has a moving frame put on it, obscuring most of it, but you can see glimpses of all of it. Then I started noticing that many other backgrounds had some imagery in them. I've never delved into this properly, leaving it for the later (I still don't know what is this painting, for instance), but I liked the fact that this was another thing you could delve into if you wanted, like spellcard names. Both in terms of potential further fleshing out of 2hu, and in terms of discovering things that were used to produce such background.
AI generated backgrounds may even look better, I'm not good with aesthetic sense myself, so I can't tell much in this regard. But for AI generated background the best you can do is trying to figure out how the end result relates to stage/boss, while with handcrafted ones you could get a journey of uncovering how it was done and then what exactly are those things. For me, it doesn't matter in terms of enjoyment from playing, I don't care about moral arguments of AI usage that much, but it certainly makes the game a little less deep as a cultural experience.
No.6419
>>6418ZUN is human ChatGPT
No.6421
>>6416Well the only truly pro-AI person would be
>>>/trans/23272 but they're heavily outnumbered by the amount of people lazily throwing shade at ZUN for something they think is an easy way to score epeen with the teens.
No.6422
>>6415not really a good comparison given that Unity asset flips are literally the equivalent of the argument against the use of AI for indie game creation before the existence of genAI became mainstream lol
No.6423
>>6422It is a pretty good comparison though. If you reread my post you'll realize you just said as much yourself. Unity asset flip garbage is in the same boat as completely AI generated garbage but people aren't going to jump down your throat if for one shack in your game you used a stock asset bucket instead of modeling it yourself.
No.6424
>>6423I was going to say yeah you're right but I have remembered people getting incredibly pissed off with devs for using one or two unity assets in a game that's otherwise entirely creator made
No.6426
>>6424Yeah, but I feel the same way about those arguments and the people who made them about the people freaking out and causing a shitstorm over the AI bg in Touhou.
No.6427
>>6425Nice try AI shill, but I'm baking my own transistors as we speak...
No.6429
>>6419I thought that was Kamachi.
>>6420>a tiny insignificant detail Background textures are pretty important to creating the right atmosphere and lots of people spend lots of time getting them just right. But I guess AIfags can't talk about the subject without letting their utter disdain for artists leak through.
No.6431
>>6429Spellcard backgrounds have only ever been important in IN during Eirin's fight (because it was meant to be the last game in the franchise) and the Aya camera games. They're barely noticeable everywhere else. I don't care in particular because this aspect of the game has never had any artistic value anyway since it was just stock images. Hell they increasingly became more and more simplistic photobashes from 16 onwards.
No.6436
>>6435tale of the eggplant cutter
No.6439
>>6369I think if thing looks pleasant and isn't stolen that I don not care.
No.6440
>>6439actually it can be a little stolen
No.6442
>>6429>But I guess AIfags can't talk about the subject without letting their utter disdain for artists leak through.All you're doing is to confirm that anon's statement about this being Tw*tter-level garbage with baseless claims like those.
Hopefully this thread is being monitored for samefag trickery just in case.
No.6447
File:vn.png (703.34 KB,1281x1060)
Deep in their hearts people yearn for the gimp-cartoon-filter-on-real-life-image backgrounds of yore.
No.6448
I don't care if it's just a few backgrounds, he probably just went to google images and picked whatever he found like always, nowadays that shit is full of AI stuff.
I'd start worrying if more important stuff were affected.
Anyway, AI niggers are fucking subhuman regardless, AI is good as a tool but the shitters that violently defend it have trash taste and can't do the lowest amount of quality control.
I don't believe in Intellectual Property btw, I don't give a single fuck if it's stolen, but don't pretend it doesn't like like vomit.
tl;dr: sneed
No.6449
>>6439He's done it before in the PC-98 era, stole art/code and even traced stuff from his favorite games during that time, reverse engineering the PC-98 games have made it possible to see that.
https://spaztron64.github.io/th98tuc_site/https://lainnet.arcesia.net/blog/2024_09_23_n01.htmlIt's a big factor on why he will never go back and acknowledge those games in a more public way than necessary. He shouldn't have done it and should've known better. What he did with backgrounds here is better than what he did with HttP technically but the bar is pretty low here.
>>6407Well, the fact he commented on it in the omake in his prior game to say that and then go do it is highly hypocritical.
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Unfinished_Dream_of_All_Living_Ghost/OmakeBut he has mentioned it in outside media especially talking about it in an interview with WBaWC.
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Strange_Creators_of_Outer_World/Wily_Beast_and_Weakest_Creature_Interview_with_ZUNThe thing that galls me is that ZUN didn't start introducing AI into Touhou in a lower key way like using AI to actually make the coding better in his games when that is one of the best things by far AI is good at and producing results for, the last several releases have came out of the door technically incomplete and all the fans would've benefited immensely from a better technical product.
No.6450
>>6448worst post in the thread and that's saying a lot.
No.6451
When confronted with far worse things in this world, concern over the moral choice and being authetentic is ultimately worthless in my opinion. Am I going to be bashing ZUN and trying to degrade the community while also just letting Hoyoverse advertise through the most mechanical and corpate mechanisms?
No, I just don't really care about any of this and I'd even go as far as to say that whatever evil ZUN commits is justified in the grand scheme of things. Having a grassroot + open-source community requires a degree of cult loyalty where the members have to accept the fact that the communities they admire are created by people who are less than perfect.
No.6452
>>6451This is a commercial product, things are different when looked through those lenses and given
https://touhou-project.news/guidelines_en/ exists but ZUN did
>>6449 in his early days to get to where he was. Touhou was already decently large by the time EoSD released so it is not justifiable to say it doesn't matter. ZUN should know and be doing better and part of the charm of the games themselves is the fact that he does it as a single person for every mainline numbered release. It's a lot different when you have to asterisk that and it also has implications for other parts of the work. The means does not justify the ends, which is my opinion.
No.6456
>>6452Touhou didn't become popular in Japan until PCB came out. ZUN had even planned to end the franchise at IN by that time.
No.6457
>>6452>The means does not justify the ends, which is my opinion.That's where I'm at with it too. It's a tool, but is he using it to better his games? If he's using that time saved spent on handcrafting the other parts of the game for the better, then I don't see the problem. I'd still prefer shitbashed photoshop images since there's intent behind it, but using AI to brush past it is only a detriment to those who want to cut the game open for every bit of detail.
That said the actual elephant in the room is ZUN himself. He's not a single dude in his 20s pumping out Touhou, he's an old oji-san with a family and business that cannot keep that pace and maintain quality like he used to. We can clearly see how his usual release pace is now detrimental to the games, UDoALG was a mess and he could've used more time on it. I can see why he'd use AI. It's a time saver for keeping pace and letting him spend more time elsewhere, but instead of saving time it's a crutch to meet capacity for work he had twenty years ago.
He needs to slow down.
No.6458
None of the people uppity about his using of AI will ever create anything even close to half as interesting as anything ZUN has puked out.
No.6459
>>6458i can't tell whether this is pro-ai, anti-ai, or anti-discourse as a whole, but whichever it is i agree anyways
No.6460
If ZUN using AI is what it takes to finally weed the fandom out of annoying people I hope he uses it more. It's also funny I haven't seen much Japanese outrage over it either.
No.6461
>>6460>weed the fandom out of annoying peopleAlso
>fandomAll westoids are annoying
No.6462
>>6461not as annoying as the westerners who pretend to not be westerners... it's like a form of self-racism
No.6463
>>6462idk maybe he's a English speaking Southeast Asian or something
No.6464
人
（＿_）
（＿＿）
（ ＿＿ ）
（ ・∀・） Welcome to the shit thread of shit.
（つ つ This thread is a shit.
｜ ｜ | I welcome you.
（_＿）＿）
No.6465
>>6449I think it's kind of problem itself that people see these articles and immediately assumes that ZUN hates AI.
All he ever said was that AI make works easier and it'll bring societal change through the display of passion vs efficiency, but not even once he explicitly says the latter as a bad thing. Even if he made Keiki, the supposed symbol AI dominance, the main antagonist doesn't really prove his stance when Keiki isn't even depicted as evil villain nor Reimu fought her for the sole purpose to topple her reign. He's the same guy who made the plot of Kanako's technological advancement and Megumu's profit endeavor to actually succeed or persist, and made one of the protagonist/most relevant character being the lying sensational journalist. Reimu and Marisa aren't the paragon of outstanding moral either and most Touhou characters are assholes who gets away with it.
The way I see it ZUN likes to address social phenomena and use it inspiration for his games while his stance are mostly neutral while he's just trying to describe the issue as is, but people quickly jump the narrative and made it seems like ZUN take a strong stance with a subtle commentary jab against the "wrong" side when he's likely never had such intentions.
No.6466
>>6447mmm fried imageboard caps...
No.6467
>>6465I would not say his stance is neutral with the commentary he made and how he has weaved it into WBaWC and making Keiki. It's too on the nose for me personally, but people can differ on that. The main issue about this is really is him not being open about AI usage up until this point when we know that UDoALG has it but Valve had not specified their stance on how AI usage needs to be disclosed if used in a game until the past year. Also as I said in
>>6449, the main thing for me is that AI has proven itself most useful for things like programming and etc. and it seems like ZUN has not used AI there when it would've massively helped him improve the product technically which was a massive shortcoming of EDoALG.
No.6471
>>646830% real 60% troll
50% funny 50% pain
100% reason to remember the name
No.6472
saw it twice
No.6475
>>6468I don't think people remember that it's possible to have sincere conversations about AI, 4chan and twitter have poisoned the well too much.
No.6477
>>6425As a (literally who) dev, I answered your questions as if you were asking about my game
>Is every sprite handcrafted by yourself? yes
>Did you compose your own score? yes
>The story, dialogue, and characters are all your own?yes
>You designed all the combat encounters yourself? yes
>Code your game yourself? yes
>Are you painting/photographing each background asset you use? yes
>then also create your own game enginehave done this, just not for every project
>only use programming languages developed by yourself, don't use third-party software for any part of the creation processthis is equivalent to asking an artist whether they made their paints themselves or they bought them from a store
>and never look at or play any other games in your life then hole up as a hikki for a decade to develop your own unique inspirationok
No.6478
>>6477Tell us about your game devanon
No.6482
>>6369The moral ethics side to AI bores me to death so I won't comment on it
In terms of its impact on games, I view it in the same way I view clip art, pre-made assets and stock images
The more of it you use, the worse the game will be, not necessarily because they are bad by themselves but from the fact the more of it you use the more apparent it is that you don't care
The difference in quality between hand drawn background images and AI backgrounds would be very marginal but hand drawn art imply the dev is more passionate and has a stronger vision they want to realize
No.6488
>>6467I wouldn't argue against the quality of the games but I'd still like to point out his opinion on AI.
After re-reading the interview I probably gotta take some of the sentiment back to say, yeah ZUN did make a point that overrealiance in AI would result in dystopia, but it seems he was speaking more about AI influence over public opinions and choices rather than on artistic choices/workflow, which make sense because the surge of AI art didn't exist yet in 2017, so he must've specifically talked about something like digital/google statistic, voiced GPS or he predicted something like ChatGPT, Grok, Gemini and the like ahead of its time. Then again it's still come off as ZUN simply trying to come up with a dystopian plot and had to intertwine it with corporate laborers, which I don't think were big or widely controversial issues at the time and regardless has nothing to do with AI usage for creation, which is why I completely forgot about the interview. He only spoke about that matter in Touhou 19 and he only addressed in descriptive manner rather than expressing moral stance.
>>6482>hand drawn art imply the dev is more passionate and has a stronger vision they want to realizeIn ZUN's case though it's more like he want to focus more on characters, music, art direction, gameplay etc. rather than dividing more of his focus more on something he has never made himself in the first place, but it's true those AI backgrounds does look less pleasing.
No.6489
>>6468I use AI but don't advocate for it on any principles; overall it's a net negative for the average person, even though it is confronting a grim reality that most people's jobs are in fact, bullshit just to keep taxes flowing and crime low.
I just want to make cute alterations or costume swaps without bothering for commissions.
No.6495
>>6489I find it helpful for generating art references. Dumping in a ton of danbooru tags to spin the wheel is more convenient for finding what I'm looking for. It's faster than searching danbooru 2 tags at a time and filtering through infinity porn and doujin pages for something that might not have been done or posted. Still, even with all the tags you desire and cherry picking the best results, it's never going to be what I want. It instead serves as a "good enough" reference to start drawing and make exactly what I want. And I'm happy with that.
No.6498
>>6468This thread will be "fine" as long as it's monitored so it doesn't become a culture war shitflinging but I do agree that no more of these should be allowed. It's a grey subject that can easily be turned into black or white disingenuous discussion with just some faggot posting bait.
I think in the case for this game, AI usage is overall a nothingburger not worthy of spergouts but I still do not like AI and believe it to be overall a negative thing since even the most meaningless rushed up photobash can lead to some interesting topics as long as they are handmade in some way. With AI, at most you can interpret some kind of prompted theme but that's really it and it renders it mostly meaningless.
But I also for example think that AI is good for the "in-progress" side of things where you use it for references to improve your own manual work skills.
No.6499
>>6495I do a really quick reference sketch on my iPad with ibispaint sometimes and then feed it to Pixai. Sometimes it works great, other times, a total disappointment and waste of time. Not much of an in-between.
No.6500
>>6495>I find it helpful for generating art references.this is a point that gets discussed a bunch actually, and the general argument against AI there is that it often screws up details and so is untrustworthy to use as reference
like if you look at
>>6489 around the knee on the right, it's actually misaligned and looks as if it were dislocated so that's problematic
No.6503
>>6477I felt like it was a dumb bait question that didn't warrant an answer but since you did
Yes literally every indie game dev up to this point has done everything by themselves including ZUN. This is just standard practice for one-man teams
No.6505
>>6500NTA I always agreed with that point of using it to generate art references but I always thought what people meant by that was like messing around with the AI to generate cool looking designs and then drawing something based on that. Kind of like when dad artists let their kids doodle whatever schizophrenic drawings kids usually do and then they try interpreting that into a cool design
Not literally using that for pose references and such that sounds stupid
No.6506
>>6500Well, I can't really draw, so for the same reason I can't do that, I cannot also notice the mistakes, so for my purposes, what I generate is fine since I don't plan on releasing it.
No.6508
File:legs.png (Spoiler Image,3.19 MB,2689x4659)
>>6500>it often screws up details and so is untrustworthy to use as referenceWell yeah, it's AI. However, a reference does not mean you copy the image errors and all. We have eyes. The errors in the image also doesn't devalue the worth of the entire image. If the overall pose is something you like and it inspires you to emulate or adapt to something you have better in mind, then a melty face and eight fingers isn't going to be an issue.
>like if you look at >>6489 around the knee on the right, it's actually misaligned and looks as if it were dislocated so that's problematicFunny you mention that. That's a thing actual artist do.
No.6515
>>6508>If the overall pose is something you like and it inspires you to emulate or adapt to something you have better in mind, then a melty face and eight fingers isn't going to be an issue.the crux of the issue is having the anatomical understanding to see those errors and not copy them, like the artist you post who's applying stylistic deviations consciously
if you know that stuff and you're using it for a very early proto-draft inspiration like
>>6505 said then that's understandable
reference material in general made me think of the lots of nonsense animals, objects, or pseudo-historical pics that get uploaded and clog up search results for people searching for the real thing
No.6521
this truker just truked me
No.6524
The doujins only care about the characters and how they can expand the world. Gamers care about the 1CC.
Twitter users care about how BGs were possibly generated maybe? Also if any of the characters have political opinions they disagree with.
No.6526
>>6523Japanese Twitter either doesn't care or were surprised that AI was used and thought "maybe there is some value in AI?"
I'd look up what Futaba thinks for a more honest outlook on the issue but they aren't raising a stink either.
No.6527
>>6526Are Japanese surprised? I thought that they have known of ZUN's AI usage for backgrounds since GPT Radio Show.
No.6528
>>6477This is literally me.
No.6529
>>6462On all levels except physical, 私は日本人です。
No.6530
>>6527Some are but only very few. Most don't care and are more surprised about the reaction from westerners.
No.6532
>>6531This is the sovl that AI villains want to steal from us.
No.6533
>>6531I think UFO was the last time it had spellcard backgrounds like these
No.6534
>>6531I like this sort of clashing of dissimilar media
No.6535
>>6498I'd add that AI is also ok for placeholder assets for development prototypes.
No.6540
>>6524Some people, particularly westerners, stick to Touhou because of the novelty idea that it's some kind of "purest form of art" because it's just one guy crafting the magical world mostly by himself. There are people dedicated to collecting and showcasing tiny bits like spellcard backgrounds, the different instruments he used, folklore references etc. It's mostly done and thoroughly enjoyed by westerners who treat Touhou as an ideal artform.
So the sudden use of AI, which is the very opposite of their beliefs which they thought ZUN and Touhou also shared, is like a stab through the chest. To some it destroy their narratives but to some others it's simply feel like Touhou just lost the magic they think it has.
That's the sentiment I get from the more dedicated and contributive western fans that aren't just speaking for the outrage or an excuse to jump on AI debacle, or nobodies who just wanna shitpost or argue.
I think it's still rather distinct than the general sentiment of japanese fans and those who share the same mindset like folks grew on 2chan clones and old internet.
No.6551
>>6526I saw Toshiaki say "The international community sure is a little rough because of the AI thing, huh?"
No.6552
>>6551He'd be right. People are being downright hysterical about the whole thing and I think
>>6540 kinda hits at the core of the issue. People making their status as fans of the work their sole defining trait and as usual when the work differs from their viewpoint in any way it's the end of the world for them because they have nothing else. I don't think it's really exclusive to Touhou though, I think you can see it a lot across Western culture, like with Star Wars or Harry Potter and such. The only thing I can think of that gets so obsessive in Japan is more idol culture and Love Live otaku.
No.6553
This is a bit of a schizopost, but this is the best place for it.
Speaking of famous Japanese creators using AI, Kazuma Kaneko is quite the /x/ schizo (there are lots of translated interviews and blogposts available
I had an obsession episode the past month while I got interested in studying his art style technicals) and is responsible for lots of stuff ZUN got inspired by, so him taking it to this extreme is quite monumental. I'm talking "I'd take this to the Touhou esoteric thread if it weren't around an inflammatory topic even I am tired a bit"-tier schizo.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/3360010/Tsukuyomi_The_Divine_HunterReminds me of how I used the 4chan fork of AI Dungeon in the "old" days, and thought how something like this would've been the best use for generative AI. Just endless dungeon rogelike stuff that feels like how an isekai story would go in mechanics and plot - i.e. some things shaping themselves around the very personal.Honestly though, I think Kazuma dropped the ball and got on bad terms with his link to the collective unconsciousness. A dynamic and interactive system is great, but not when the creative process itself is completely outsourced. It gets into complete counter-congruence with subjectivity. There are better ways to make the Demon Summoner Program (and other kinds of mass synchronicity-amplifyi
ng systems
(Touhou would be a synchronicity-amplifying setting, so to say)), and an effective, at that. AI-less eraMegaten would be closer, maybe the closest I can recall. Until I'll finally finish mine, that is.
>>6540>>6551The Japanese just don't have the foul aftertaste and the experience with how awful AI-ing can get because the AI-obsessed people of low cultures don't know Japanese and don't appear on Japanese platforms and circles.
No.6557
I've made like 5 posts saying this already, but it literally does not matter. ZUN is not going to become a vibe coder. This is just outrage from people who don't even play the game and want to weaken otaku communities.
No.6559
>>6557Every single day I wake up thankful that the vast majority of doujin culture doesn't give a damn about western consumers. At most they release promotions in English to try and rightfully milk the gaijin and that's it.
No.6564
>>6553>spoilerCloverAI wasn't it? That was the GPT-2 fork on google colab during early /aidg/ I think. It's been too long. AID was my first interaction with genAI and I also came to the same conclusion on how it's the best use case. Running it as a personal text adventure with no limitations on what you could do and the world would react was the most fun I had with it, and I still do with the current AID derivative. The magic isn't all there anymore since I learned how it works and how you wrangle it, but it's still nice to immerse yourself in. A shame the threads went to shit with an AI schizo making it his dayjob to troll those threads across the site, and everyone else in other places were more interested in chatbots or image gen over a storyteller.
>the AI-obsessed people of low cultures don't know Japanese and don't appear on Japanese platforms and circles.They don't seem to have the same kind of polarized cult-like behavior to it as the west does, which is good since a middle ground can actually exist without being drowned out by pro-skub and anti-skub arguments. The major concerns I've seen is from artists not wanting their styles to be cloned or trained off of, which is understandable.
>>6554This is why you don't use social media. It can't be problematic if you don't care or know what the normals think. For God's sake liking sexy women with large breasts is "problematic", so fuck em!
No.6565
>>6564anonymous rocking that cape while bringing retribution to the norms
No.6568
Bit of a tangent but God, just look at the night and day difference between the threads on this topic on 4/jp/ and this thread here.
as one of the refugees from 4/jp/ it's depressing seeing this is just the future of 4/jp/ now because the mods literally do not care and learned nothing from getting doxxed
No.6594
>>6564>count greythis brings me back...
No.6716
>>6447I genuinely wish he'd do things like the cat in Okuu's spell card again.