FIII
NAN
CIAL
FRAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUDD
that's the real shit right there that's what gets shit done no brainer full steam ahead

Posting without bumping the thread.

The law is just an organization for carrying out the will of the citizenry with efficiency. Saying that I'm immune from the police but not from the people who empower the police makes the whole exercise pointless. If anything, I'd rather be caught by the law than by the mob because they have to follow rules on how to treat suspects. Them not immediately knowing you did it is the default for the police too and at least they don't start lynching people on suspicion alone.

>no rapes plus murder
Then why would you ever pick this? If she talks you're found out and if she doesn't then it wasn't really a rape.

I also don't get the question to begin with. Is it supposed to be about what crimes we want to do for the benefits or is it about what crime we don't actually think is immoral? Because I want free money more than I want to eat people, but I think scamming people is a worse thing to do than chowing down on a corpse.

>>4983
>just an organization for carrying out the will of the citizenry with efficiency
VADE RETRO VOLTAIRE
>if she doesn't then it wasn't really a rape
weird ethical framework

no shit it was rousseau actually

>>4983
>The law is just an organization for carrying out the will of the citizenry with efficiency.
This simply isn't true do you know how many out there would rape a rapist as justice? Torture a murderer? Steal everything from a financial fraudster?
The law system exists to stop acts of revenge.
>I'd rather be caught by the law than by the mob because they have to follow rules on how to treat suspects.
Who said you're getting caught? Just be smart about it.
>Them not immediately knowing you did it is the default for the police
Yes and they never will start knowing, law enforcement is not the public or civilians after all.
>the default for the police too and at least they don't start lynching people on suspicion alone.
Yup the people could target the wrong people work that to your advantage if you can.
>Then why would you ever pick this? If she talks you're found out and if she doesn't then it wasn't really a rape.
Wear a mask and protection.
>Is it supposed to be about what crimes we want to do for the benefits
Anything you wish you could do or you could do nothing as well which makes you moral so you could steal from the financial fraudster if you could figure out who did it.

>>4982
great post

>>4984
How is that weird? The difference between rape and consensual sex is whether the individual in question expresses that it was not consensual. If you never tell anyone that you didn't want it then it cannot be judged to be rape.

>>4986
>do you know how many out there would rape a rapist as justice? Torture a murderer? Steal everything from a financial fraudster?
So? There are plenty of others who wouldn't. The legal systems are a result of all interested parties coming to an agreement on how to handle these situations. The will of singular individuals isn't reflective of the overall will of society.

Even if the police were magically unable to find you, the people would just form a new organization called the notpolice to find you. That's why these sorts of questions typically exempt you from being caught by any party. It being possibly slightly easier to hide your tracks makes it a question of a person's risk aversion rather than a measure of morality.

>which makes you moral
Only under the framework that you have presented.

>>4988
>If you never tell anyone that you didn't want it then it cannot be judged to be rape.
Interesting.
>Even if the police were magically unable to find you, the people would just form a new organization called the notpolice to find you.
You think so? That a bunch of people would form together in harmony and organically? Maybe for some crimes, maybe...I won't invalidate this view point it's your right to have it.
>Only under the framework that you have presented.
Correct.
I won't force you into any sort of choice as all are valid here. You can be a listless observer, just hope the crime isn't against you, the chances are very low for this of course.

>>4988
>whether the individual in question expresses that it was not consensual
the lack or presence of consent is, messily enough, independent of whether it was explicitly expressed, as it in many cases when the victim is under duress and either breaks the news many years later or simply never does, but the rape did very much occur
in terms of what can be judged to be rape, that is dependent on the specific and arbitary legal system you're dealing with, things like it being impossible to rape your slaves or your wife under US law
if you speak of rape as a purely legal phenomenon then your stance makes more sense, but i'm not sure that's what you're saying

>>4990
The issue is that the differentiating factor exists entirely inside of one person's mind and is thus impossible to verify except through that person's testimony. Theoretically, you could have thought you didn't want it for one second during sex and that would technically mean a rape occurred, but there's no way for anyone else to actually know that so functionally it's not rape until you express that it is to someone. It's basically the opposite of a girl deciding after the fact that she didn't consent.

The only one that's really valid is fraud. It's only harmful to big legal entities like the government. Since these entities are not citizens they cant strike back. Furthermore it's a crime that the average joe doesn't care you committed, unless you're a richfag or CEO in which case it's no different than if you didn't have immunity. The citizens in government could go after you, but again, it's hardly something worth getting a lynch mob together for; it's too much effort to go after you and since they weren't personally effected then they have little motivating them to this vendetta.
As >>4981 said:
>no brainer full steam ahead

>>4992
>It's only harmful to big legal entities like the government
So if I make fraudulent charges on your credit card that's not hurting anyone but the government?

I kinda wish I added a clause for financial fraud like it needing to be against a charity but I have suspicion it wouldn't have changed much anyway.
>>4993
Oh yeah, that's a good point since you can pick a victim, some random joe will likely not be cared about enough for people to do anything but steal from Soros and you could be a target by crazy rich people scared that they could be next.

Doing some Robin Hooding sounds good to me

>>4991
this is indeed why rape with all of its complications is perhaps the trickiest crime to handle, but to say that it is not rape unless it's expressed throws the baby out with the bathwater and excludes the myriad cases where, say, a child is abused by a relative, the victim is drugged, or where forcefully rejecting it carries an implied life-changing threat
saying that it's impossible to verify without a person's expressed mental state abstracts away the real usage of force (often physical) that can indeed be used to judge these situations and furthermore makes you end up unable to decree that a dead person in someone's attic was raped, even when the signs are clear enough to be deemed fully conclusive by any investigation

Does theft count as financial fraud? Could I rob a bank under Financial Fraud?

>>4993
Yeah you could. Go right ahead, but the credit limit on it is pretty low so best you're getting is like 200 bucks. The other thing is how much effort are you willing to put in for that and for what gain? You're choosing between getting a hold of and maxing out someone's credit card vs not paying taxes.
>>4994
There's another loophole in the scenario I think. While the perpetrator can't be prosecuted the rest of the legal base can still operate. What's stopping the bank from freezing the account that anon is trying to draw from or preventing charges from going through? They already do this when you get a $4000 dollar charge from Bumfuck Egypt and if your bank is good you'll get notified about it and wont leave you $4000 in the hole. With your example, you got your one chance to do ANYTHING you wanted, so you chose to steal Soro's wealth; but, you got romanced by an automated system and got nothing out of it.

You have legal immunity, but you never said you had a 100% chance of success. Civilians, which would include the victims, have total immunity from their actions. You can legally commit murder or rape, but the person you're trying to murder or rape is within their right to fight back. Same with a vigilante stopping you from committing terrorism.

i'd like to hear the viewpoint of the anonymous interested in terrorism
also check'm

>>4997
Yes.
>>4998
>You have legal immunity, but you never said you had a 100% chance of success. Civilians, which would include the victims, have total immunity from their actions.
Oh yes that is true this whole scenario can get very chaotic very quick.

>>5002
>yes
That's it, I'm robing a bank.

>>4996
But the use of force, and even violence, can be consensual, as can using mind altering substances beforehand or hooking up with someone in a position of power over you. All of your examples would fall under statutory rape, which is essentially a third-party presuming guilt based on circumstantial evidence, sometimes even their verdict runs contrary to the statements of the one person who knows for real whether it was nonconsensual.

>>5000
You're positively glowing, Anonymous.

>>5004
how can i glow if i'm not green

Of all the crimes on the liat, I feel that having a free revenge murder wpuld be the best. The mob rule usually justifies it in the end.

>>5004
on the one hand, this does not answer the point of it being rape without the victim explicitly expressing it while it implies circumstancial evidence typically doesn't align with the victim's opinion when force was used and/or denies the importance and commonplace status of force altogether, still effectively arguing that women raped in wartime haven't been raped if they don't talk about it, and on the other it's returning to rape as an abstract legal phenomenon rather than real actions, again in the same vein as "it's not rape if it's a slave because they aren't people"
you're also incorrect that all those examples are statutory rape, that's specifically about age and doesn't answer the point of the obviously raped corpse either
that's what makes yours a bizarre ethical framework, as i have never talked with anyone who believes this, not even lawyers

>>5008
Rape IS an abstract legal phenomenon. The real act is just sex, which itself is an abstract legal phenomenon but let's just assume it's ponos in vagooo here. But this thread is supposed to be about morality and the morality of rape is based on the consent of the involved parties, which is, as you've pointed out, not exactly the case with the legal definitions.

OP already said rape + murder isn't allowed so that example doesn't need to be considered and when the "victim" is living and never levies a charge of rape then the legal immunity you have is completely pointless. Sure, any third party can come in and claim it was rape, but in that case the law is protecting the suspect rather than the supposed victim by limiting the number of situations in which this can be done.

>>5009
let's do a little thought experiment
you're reading an eromanga called "the unlucky maiden gets raped by a horde of thirsty goblins"
they come into town, they set everything on fire and kill everyone save for this last girl, they bring her out, tear apart their clothes in the middle of a crowd, and begin forcefully inserting themselves into her four holes while holding her at knifepoint
the girl's shouting "NOOOO I'M BEING RAPED HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN AAAAA" while the goblins go "RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE!!!!"
she ultimately gives out, becomes a husk of a human being and drops to the ground, and the goblins decapitate her and rip out her guts, without her ever getting the chance to legally prosecute them or even tell what happened to another
it is tagged as female:rape and in the comments people are going "man i sure love goblin rape it's my favorite hentai situation"
has she been raped?

>>5010
>the girl's shouting "NOOOO I'M BEING RAPED HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN AAAAA"
I have no choice but to take her word for it. I don't see how this is supposed to prove your point.

>>5011
so the only difference is vocalization? if she hadn't said that, it wouldn't be rape?

>>4980
money without legal risk is of course, perfect
the general public isn't going to care either unless I was stupid and scammed someone's grandma vs say, convincing Google or some shit that I was a vendor they needed to pay (IIRC, this actually happened, some guy falsely billed various large companies and they paid), and I sure won't feel bad about it either

like yeah, you could go and nakadashi some idol and get away with it, but it seems like a waste when loads of money is also on the table
cumming inside a cute girl would just add to my problems, while loads of money would solve most of my problems

Financial fraud so that I could be rich. Also in this case even if the public found out it would not matter as they would not really care.

Well either that or I would murder Junzo Hosoi to save the Atelier series.