[ home / bans / all ] [ amv / jp / sum ] [ maho ] [ cry ] [ f / ec ] [ qa / b / poll ] [ tv / bann ] [ toggle-new ]

/maho/ - Magical Circuitboards

Advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic

New Reply

Options
Comment
File
Whitelist Token
Spoiler
Password (For file deletion.)
Markup tags exist for bold, itallics, header, spoiler etc. as listed in " [options] > View Formatting "



[Return] [Bottom] [Catalog]

File:[A-Flux] Battle Programmer….png (554.96 KB,640x480)

 No.4292

ITT I highlight some new exciting software projects that attempt to improve the (horrible) state of modern computing. Today we'll start with the terminal emulator.

 No.4293

First up: Lash#Cat9

If you've spent any amount of time in the CLI of most modern systems you've no doubt been annoyed by the various issues within them. The inability to properly do TUIs without tons of horrible workarounds. The incompatibility between shells. It's a horrible time all around. Most shells and terminal emulators can't even do things like display a real time clock in 2025!

Enter Cat9 a project from the same guy that's been quietly trying to improve upon Xorg/Wayland for over a decade now with his great project Arcan. Which we'll touch upon later.

Rather than writing my own long post about how it improves upon existing solutions and the problems with existing shells/terminals I'll link you to highly detailed posts on his dev blog instead.

>The issues with existing shells/terminals;
https://arcan-fe.com/2022/04/02/the-day-of-a-new-command-line-interface-shell/
>Introduction to Cat9 (first blog post upon release)
https://arcan-fe.com/2022/10/15/whipping-up-a-new-shell-lashcat9/
>More Cat9 features
https://arcan-fe.com/2024/05/17/cat9-microdosing-stash-and-list/
https://arcan-fe.com/2024/08/05/cat9-microdosing-each-and-contain/

For a quick overview of what Cat9 can do check out the embedded youtube demo and further demos in the links above.

The short version: Existing shells/terminals basically emulate an ancient computer system that never really existed and bring along with them a lot of cruft and legacy stuff that go back to the days of when we interfaced with systems using a printer for output. Cat9 avoids these problems and allows for things like true swallowing, real time feedback/output, multiple jobs and many other features that help improve TUIs. All while giving you the ability to run your legacy shell scripts (and bash scripts).

It's an amazing project that I've been using for years now. Almost no one has heard about it if they aren't following development of Arcan and the A12 display protocol standards. Cat9 is likely packaged in your OS's repos right now. At least it is on every Linux and *BSD I use.

You should give it a try. Once you do it's impossible to go back to things like bash, zsh, ksh, fish and all the others.

 No.4294

>>4293
One link forgotten in the above, sorry about that:

https://arcan-fe.com/2024/09/16/a-spreadsheet-and-a-debugger-walks-into-a-shell/

When I get time later today I'll introduce you to the proper replacement for the display server problem. Which hint: Isn't wayland. Instead we'll talk about Arcan. A project that introduces a lot of things lacking from modern *Nix like a real IPC, the ability to share windows/applications over multiple systems (even non-UNIX based ones) without any of the problems of Xorg or resorting to things like VNC. Along with many many other cool things. All while retaining the ability to use all legacy software that relies on X11 and the few things that are wayland-only.

In a sane world it would have been picked up by more developers long ago and well on its way to replacing X11/Wayland in modern Linux distros and BSD. Instead, the author has been quietly chugging away on his own with a group of dedicated helpers. All without begging for donations or promoting himself all over the internet. He has working demos already where he's sharing applications in real time over multiple computers, tablets and servers with _zero_ lag or issues over the network usually associated with the X11 and VNC protocols. Including stuff like running games in emulators.

 No.4295

You may be interested in this thread >>391
(not saying a "condense your threads" thing, just letting you know)

 No.4296

The scale of this project is insane. Love it. Happy to see that there are still gems like this in the far corners of the Web. I Started going through the rabbit hole and it runs so deep. I particularly enjoyed the interview with the developer at https://lobste.rs/s/w3zkxx/lobsters_interview_with_bjorn_stahl

"The distance from what has been done and where my mental model currently sits compared to what is written down or published is several years"

I do wonder what he has in store after showing a way out of terminal emulation, replacing Xorg, VR desktop, the dataflow .. thing ..

 No.4297

File:Puniru.Is.a.Cute.Slime.S02….jpg (217.46 KB,1920x1080)

I'm too dumb for any of this, but it seems cool!

 No.4298

>>4297
>I'm too dumb for any of this, but it seems cool!
Let's try something simpler then!

https://man.openbsd.org/mg
https://github.com/ibara/mg

Introducing mg, probably the best text editor ever made for any OS. Ported to most every UNIX-like OS. Created by the OpenBSD developers to be a small, fast and easy-to-use text editor for programming and editing config/text files that could be included in the OpenBSD base system without any concerns about security holes. Based upon emacs bindings and coming in around the same size of vi and ed. From the OpenBSD man page:

>mg is intended to be a small, fast, and portable editor for people who can't (or don't want to) run emacs for one reason or another, or are not familiar with the vi(1) editor.
>It is compatible with emacs because there shouldn't be any reason to learn more editor types than emacs or vi(1).

So we have an editor as small as vi with standard emacs (ctrl+<something>) bindings that comes with a well written man page. Unlike emacs, vim and other full blown IDEs it doesn't come with a massive scripting interface that requires a life time to learn. Nor does it pull in an entire browser engine and tons of 'bloat'. It's small and it works and it does pretty much anything you need an editor to do.

It has replaced vi/vim and ed as the standard editors on all my systems including those I work on remotely. Since I love emacs but sometimes I don't want to load up a full emacs instance or deal with remote files in my local emacs instance/port my config to other OSs. I don't have to worry about mg being an exploit into my system(s). Since unlike emacs and most other full blown IDEs it doesn't attempt to connect to the internet all of the time.

It's very fast and if you know emacs bindings (which are default bindings in most everything that isn't vi/vim) it's very easy to pick up in just a few minutes. For example; Want to save a file? ctrl+x -> ctrl+s. Want to close the editor? ctrl+x -> ctrl+c. All the other bindings are easy to learn. You can be up to speed in 10 minutes after reading the above man page.

It loads instantly. Just as fast as vi/ed and much faster than vim with a custom config. If you don't want to deal with "emacs pinky" simply remap your CAPS key to ctrl. Which is where it was originally before keyboards went full retard.

I'm not sure why people even so-called experts are unaware that mg exists. But so many people claiming to be developers in places like the Gentoo dev IRC channel do not know about it. Nor do you ever see it brought up in the daily vim vs. emacs "holy wars".

I do not even bother editing config files in /etc with anything else these days. Even though I live in emacs and run it as a daemon on all of my systems. mg is much faster and I can jump into and out of it quickly when I'm browsing /etc from a terminal.

 No.4299

File:cooking.jpg (783.29 KB,1200x1077)

>>4296
Arcan and surrounding projects is something I want to do a write up on soon. But I'm happy to see you've gone down the rabbit hole already. That blog is a treasure trove of good information and the lead developer of the Arcan project is a great guy. He's also the type of person that quietly works on things without causing drama and attempting to beg for donations and/or raise a stink everywhere.

Arcan as it exists now is already a great project and usable as a daily system along with everything that comes with it like A12 and his new IPC protocol. It solves so many issues with how the desktop works and problems things like dbus are attempting to solve and doing very badly. The only reason it isn't more well known in my opinion is organizations like FreeDesktop/IBM/Red Hat are 100% opposed to improvements in those areas that aren't their own protocols/implementations. Really hard to compete and get exposure again an organization like IBM/Red Hat/Freedesktop as it has the might and money of the major tech companies and the US military/NATO behind it. As we've seen most of the things coming out of their camp have been a disaster. dbus itself is a massive security hole and doesn't solve the problems it claims to be solving.

Arcan is great because things like Xorg/Wayland can be abstracted away and the applications designed for them can continue to work while running under Arcan. The main issue with Arcan at the moment is there aren't any big DEs/WMs written for it. There are two though both of which work pretty well. But they're reference implementations intended to show off what it can do instead of being used as a day-to-day system for most users. Thankfully, Arcan is finally getting more attention and people are working on filling those gaps. But just imagine if it had the excitement behind it like something like Wayland currently does. But it won't since it's really hard to beg for donation money if you base your software on something that isn't flavor of the week/month.

I suspect Arcan will finally break out and become more well known once some bold person builds an entirely new Linux distro and/or BSD around it. Perhaps one being sold on hardware the same company is producing where everything 'just works' out of the box without requiring the end user to configure everything and hand pick hardware. There exists a huge segment of the market that would really like something like Arcan powered desktop.

Imagine if a company sold workstations, laptops, tablets, phones, VR gaming system and a home server solution ('personal cloud') that allowed you to share applications between all of those devices in real time without any of the current hacky solutions like remote desktop applications. Arcan can already do this today provided you know what you're doing and take the time to set it up.

For example: At home right now I have a home server, two workstations and a laptop all running Arcan and talking to each other through A12 protocol. I can run a game like Touhou 15 through wine on one of the workstations. Then I can drag/drop it over to the laptop in real time without any dropped frames or it crashing. I can play on the laptop for awhile then drag/drop it over to another workstation whenever I want. I can even pause the game, drag/drop it to the home server then stream it to any other display device in my house. Later on I can unpause it and play it off the server or I can of course drag/drop it back to the original workstation it was started on. While I don't have a tablet/phone to test this I could drag/drop it to one of those too and continue playing the game there if I wanted. All while having the choice to use the original input device on the original system or transferring input to another device on the other systems. It really is amazing.

Whenever you bring up Arcan in the usual wayland vs. Xorg threads though people that have never used it assume it's just like Xorg's networking features and claim it's crap. Even though A12 is much improved over X11. Also, most of those people have never used X11 networking over a decent connection/LAN either. Since it works pretty well as is depending on what you're doing over the network. If it didn't it wouldn't have been so widely used in the 80s/90s after all. But everyone's memory of it being slow/crap is from attempting to use it over old slow dial-up/ISDN/aDSL connections back then. They've never used it on a proper modern LAN and they've probably never configured it correctly. Same goes for the claims of it not being secure.

Wayland itself I won't go into much other than to say it has a lot of problems and is a bit of a disaster. It's certainly a regression from even X11 and none of its "security features" are really secure. They're more for doing things like preventing you from taking screenshots of a browser window running Netflix than ensuring no one can steal your password. It's security theater intended to normalize DRM in other words.

I'll try to do a deep dive on Arcan and surrounding projects soon.




[Return] [Top] [Catalog] [Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]

[ home / bans / all ] [ amv / jp / sum ] [ maho ] [ cry ] [ f / ec ] [ qa / b / poll ] [ tv / bann ] [ toggle-new ]