No.5355
To preface, I think that /qa/ has been wonderful so far. It’s provided a place for people that want to get away from the crappiness of the modern internet and has proven to be a nice haven for those rangebanned off of 4/qa/. There’s nothing more I could ask of the admins in regards to how things have been handled so far.
My concerns today stem from /jp/, the secondary board made to be /qa/’s dumping grounds of sorts. Its purpose has always been murky and shrouded in a veil of vagueness, but I believe today that there is a path for kissu to clear this vagueness and give the board a clear purpose alongside being a side for less important funposts. My proposal is that the moderation of the board become more hands off from the staff, and more hands on for the posters. This of course, excludes crap that doesn’t belong on a 2D/Random board in the first place such as 3D, cancerman/frogs, and politics discussion.
The for this reason being that while /qa/ has appealed to the section of 4/qa/ that liked to take it easy and talk to each other about meta, otaku culture, and the like, there was also another portion of 4/qa/ that has been largely ignored by kissu from the getgo. These posters being those who were interested in /qa/’s unique clash of cultures which lead to the creation something wholly unique and fun. That 4/qa/ from 2017 has been mostly lost to history, and while some may think that the current “board wars” going on are representative of it, I think it to be a wholly different concept. The clashing cultures of 2017 were more closely related to each other, and weren’t really vying for presence on the board, but rather the clashes were due to the differing philosophies and values of those posting. Leading to passionate arguments, lighthearted shit/funposting at each other, fun trolling of each other, and a lot of positive inter-board interaction. For the most part this doesn’t exist on kissu in its current state, mostly that’s due to staff moderation standards. While not being the exact same, they’re a bit too similarly strict on both boards towards those that clash with the current culture, thereby making the possibility for this to occur once again extremely, if not entirely, unlikely.
That is why I believe the moderation on /jp/ should be even more lax than it currently is. If the possibility is there, then I believe kissu also has the capability to pull it off. I think there’s a fair amount of people who may have been interested in the extension of this on kissu that would be interested in coming back if /jp/ were to become a gathering for posters with differing perspectives and cultures. It is also true that this wouldn’t just be a net negative for /qa/ posters themselves sharing a site with those who clash with them, as on 4/qa/ people were able to have fun with it and exhibit creativity in their retorts to what they may find kuso. So while it may not seem like a good idea to some on paper, it could turn out to be more enjoyable than people think.
There’s also the problem people have had with /jp/ since its inception, that it’s quite difficult at times to distinguish what goes on it or /qa/. The difference between the two isn’t very clear and oftentimes threads that wouldn’t seem out of place on /qa/ are posted on /jp/ or vice versa. Just as well, living in /qa/’s shadow /jp/ hasn’t really seen much growth of its own. When /qa/ is active there’s not usually much going on in /jp/ and when /jp/ is active it somewhat sucks away from /qa/. I think it would be nice if both boards could be active somewhat independent of each other. Bringing the “epic” to /jp/, as some would say, would help /jp/ to be more active independent of whether /qa/ is or not, and also help to create a clearer difference between the two boards, making finding where to post a thread more simple.
No.5356
Now on to the more philosophical aspect of why a more hands off approach to moderation on /jp/ would be a positive change. I think as a mature site, it shouldn’t be expected that the moderation needs to step in for just any kuso, there should more faith in posters to handle trash accordingly, by ignoring or making something positive out of it. For all its faults, ota is a shining example of how this can work for the better, not in general, but occasionally. I’ve seen trash threads on there which would never be given the time of day here on kissu be morphed by replies into a thread I can genuinely enjoy, and I think, or would like to believe, that the posters here are capable of the same. By immediately resorting to moderation for such threads on /jp/ it gives off the sense that there isn’t enough trust in users to be mature enough to deal with it themselves. Moderation being quick to delete/ban carries with it the negative association of a board maybe being too serious for funposts, something which /jp/ was moreso created for in the beginning, funposts not fit for /qa/ or that posters felt weren’t of usual /qa/ quality. So to hold it to near the same standards as /qa/ also makes it feel a bit redundant, even if it serves its current purpose nicely.
Some may see this suggestion as a push to make /jp/ more like a certain spinoff(name matters not), but I see it differently. I think that the interaction between people of sites with differing cultures where thread longevity isn’t meant to be an issue could lead to something more unique and fun, like what old /qa/ was. /jp/ being seen as a point of attraction for those of differing culture may even lead to a boost for /qa/, as the current stigma around kissu being too serious may be a reason some well suited for the site avoid it. Since the only thing I believe may be currently holding kissu back is how it’s perceived by others.
No.5358
What's been moderated from /jp/ that you thought ought not be? Don't see anything in recent /trans/ outside of the excluded categories you give
No.5361
this thread is why people make fun of kissu
No.5364
>>5358Personally. I think that >>>/trans/1652 and >>>/trans/1573 weren't exactly the worst posts possible. Although the first is undeniably bad, I probably wouldn't have it deleted in the /jp/ proposed, but assume that the posts within it would be treating it appropriately, like they did. I've no hard feelings over it being deleted myself, but there are others who don't feel the same and believe that it's being too serious for a funposting board. Obviously a dumb hill to die on, but if the feeling is there, and from a poster that's not necessarily always trash.
I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't also turn off others of similar or even higher standards for what should constitute mod intervention. For someone of similar standing to the smartphone retard that shits up /what/ and gnfos, who believes any stepping in is bad their opinion can be discarded and their presence removed. But for others that don't want mod being too overprotective of them, that are still good posters, it's a turn off that could have them stay where they are. Like say the Nep poster, maybe a few more #qa posters(I can't be sure), and definitely some spinoff holdouts that I don't believe to be awful.
>>5361I need to be overly serious in my thread about how being too serious is bad or else who will take me seriously...
>>5362I still believe that /jp/ should be a part of kissu if you read my post, but I just believe that it should do more to appeal to the part of /qa/ that was still part of the good on /qa/, but just didn't make its way here. It just so happens that the other good part of /qa/ happened through an interaction between /qa/ serious types, gnfos types, and other types.
No.5365
1. - You are following all the phases of "malcontent image board admin syndrome" to the letter. First it's new imageboard software to make things look fresh, now it's misguided attempts at attracting more users to make things [i]feel/i] fresh, the latter brought about from reminiscing about good old days. Makes me worry about this site's longevity.
2. - You had a chance to do what you're thinking of way earlier in the year when henrietta attempted moving here. You squandered it. Now what you'll get out of this measure is turn /jp/ very literally into the coping grounds of someone who has irritable bowel syndrome in real life and is chasing the dopamine rush and validation he got when he was banned on the 4 for "literal shitposting" over 6 years ago. What will happen to kissu is exactly what happened to ota, regardless of your "inb4" warning people you already know what analogy they'll be tracing: there will be a torrent of low-effort contentless threads with outdated shock value, not enough people to turn them into something interesting, the original userbase of the site exhausts itself trying to keep a balance between the awful shit that's made their site home, eventually the balance breaks, the original population becomes increasingly discontent and you'll get spam wars where whatever remains of the original userbase attempts to restore balance by keeping at least one thing bumped (in ota it was love live), until even that's not enough and they turn on you.
Look at ota now and what's there and tell me without reservations that encouraging an environment where trash threads are the norm is worth losing whatever niche you're carving for yourself just so you have the pleasure of stumbling upon the statistic abnormality of "trash thread turned good". Unless you undertake the even more exhausting and arbitrary task of actively culling and deleting those threads as they begin dominating the front page and establish quotas, which is even more ridiculous a concept, but hey it's never been tried so who knows if it might work. I predict you'll become a babysitter overnight, though.
3. - People who don't come to kissu won't come because they don't want to. If it's not because it's too serious, it'll be for some other reason. Stop browsing ota and realize the admin of that place is acting maliciously and has successfully killed both whatever remained of /jp/ pre-AoC as well as other attempts at a site like it and like this (the new ota, kakashi nenpo). He's come too late to assassinate your character before you got enough users to not depend on their population for activity, so now he'll be trying other strategies. Don't align yourself with whatever big players remain on that part of the internet, unless you consider Y10NRDY a big name. Poor guy's come years too late to change anything over there. Focus on getting your name out there to attract other people (the translation project was a good idea) instead of tying to attract users from other sites, much less cesspools like ota.
I wanted to write something better structured but I don't have the time. Maybe later.
No.5367
>>5365This is a mod.
I don't agree with him.
No.5368
was logged in as admin, which is not actually an admin
No.5369
I have no clue what is going on in this thread, but anyway, I think trying to recreate the environment of late 2016-2017 /qa/ is futile. It is not something that can exist outside of 4chan, because it requires two things: first, the malleability of a board that is (/was at the time) unlisted, lacking a clear purpose, and mostly free of moderation; and a wide variety of posters with differing visions that only a large general purpose site can offer.
Additionally. a lot of the best shitposting on /qa/ was mockery of undesirable (from my/"our" point of view) posters, but the sentiment behind this was always "well, they're already here, so we might as well have some laughs at their expense". I don't think anyone would want to invite shitty posters just to poke fun at them.
No.5370
>>5369> I don't think anyone would want to invite shitty posters just to poke fun at themI think “/jp/ - retard zoo” would be good for a couple of laughs for a day or two every year
No.5371
why is cunnyposting deletion worthy?
No.5372
>>5371this is the real important question of this thread!
No.5373
>>5367this is a little confusing of me to say for observers. OP is mod, the guy I'm citing is not.
No.5374
>>5365I really don't see what's so disagreeable about what OP is talking about. He rambled a bit more than necessary and didn't make some of his points very clear, but he's basically just saying to only ban frogs, wojaks and blatantly political stuff and stop being overzealous when it comes to everything else. Verniy has had several episodes where he behaved like a 4/jp/ janny/mod; and overzealous moderation was the main reason people left 4/jp/ and 4/qa/. Kissu just needs to have a clear policy on what type of content is allowed or not and then there won't be any issue of it becoming like gnfos or ota. The sweet spot lies in the middle ground.
>>5369The environment may not be replicable, but the REASON 4/qa/ was good in the beginning was because it lacked any actual moderation from the staff and was instead 100% self-moderated, therefore kissu doesn't need any more moderation than what's actually necessary.
No.5375
>>5373There was really no reason to say that...
I'd rather people not worry that this thread's words may carry any weight in the case that they disagree. I was pushing a hypothetical to see what people's opinions were, not trying to make an official statement on what will be done.
No.5378
Admin abuse...
No.5379
>>5355It's sad watching a very analytical attempt to recapture a specific social climate. I've done the same thing before and tried to socially engineer a community to match a golden era
I don't think its possible anymore
No.5380
>>5379My argument isn't that I want to try and specifically engineer it again from nothing, that would be impossible, but that kissu/jp/ has the capacity to produce something similar. Maybe I'm too wishful and it isn't possible, that those times are long gone since it's no longer 4chan and as
>>5369 said the variety in vision is only really possible on such a large site like 4chan.
If kissu were ever to grow extremely large on its own, possibly it could occur. But I guess for now trying to replicate the old days may indeed be a idealistic impossibility.
No.5381
>>5380Forget about trying to re-create it and instead ponder on the actual reason 4/qa/ was good. It was due to a relaxed environment where anyone could post + dedicated users who knew how to self-moderate. It became garbage due to the manager stepping in and making it his personal playground.
Don't turn kissu into a hotpocketed shithole like it if you want it to be good, simple. Do not moderate arbitrarily and have clear policies on the type of content that's allowed or not.
No.5382
>>5381Well, maybe having some clear policies on what is strictly not allowed, like cancerman, frogs, politics discussion, and slacktivism could benefit new users. However, I'm not sure how keen vern is on changing the current rule list.
No.5383
>>5373It was. The guy who confused me because both spoke with the tone of authority and I don't want others to think this is my opinion.
No.5391
>it’s quite difficult at times to distinguish what goes on /jp/ or /qa/There is a difference, and it's pretty simple; /qa/ is for smart, and /jp/ is for
stupid unrestrained fun. But, still, Futaba has how many nijiura boards again? Regardless, strict categorization and segregation is a pointless pursuit.
>It is also true that this wouldn’t just be a net negative for /qa/ posters themselves sharing a site with those who clash with them>I think that the interaction between people of sites with differing cultures... could lead to something more unique and fun, like what old /qa/ wasYou'd have to convince others of that. I really don't see it. At best, you'd just be inviting pointless conflict and drama and then the potential for undesirable posters to try and take up residence on /qa/ after being introduced to this new /jp/. If there's
any positives, I'm not seeing them. The broader /jp/-sphere is diverse, but I find it hard to say that I'd really prefer being anywhere other than where I am currently,
which is why I post on Kissu to begin with.>>5364Would your /jp/ allow the one emoji-posting, r/animemes teen from a little while ago? They broke no outlined rules, nor did they post, "3D, cancerman/frogs, or politics discussion."
>>5374Self-moderation on the scale of 4/qa/ is not a feat worth celebrating in and of itself. It was a practical necessity, not one of choice. Blanket anti-moderation sentiment is reductive and needlessly antagonistic.
No.5392
>>5391>Self-moderation on the scale of 4/qa/ is not a feat worth celebrating in and of itself.Why not? It was what made the board good. It wouldn't be allowed to exist in its form if not for it.
>It was a practical necessity, not one of choiceIt was 100% the choice of the users of the board. We never asked the staff to step in and intervene.
>Blanket anti-moderation sentiment is reductive and needlessly antagonistic.I'm not opposed to any type of moderation, just overzealous moderation of the kind that happened on 4/jp/ and 4/qa/. He was overzealous on multiple occasions and it's the one of the main reasons why some people who used to post on 4/qa/ admittedly don't post on kissu.
No.5393
>>5392>Why not?Please re-read the words, "in and of itself."
No.5394
>>5393I still think it is regardless of whatever you meant by that. If you can have a good community without any mod intervention it means your community is very dedicated and cooperative.
No.5422
>>5394>It was what made the board good.Again, not in and of itself. It's like praising the drive shaft of a car and not the engine. The drive shaft actually allows the car to move, sure, but without an engine, all you've got is a husk. To my point, 4/qa/ still has plenty of self-moderation, regardless of whether it offends you to consider it such. The wojak-spammers are extremely militant and defend their posting while likewise maligning others who dare to criticize them, while also pushing threads off the board to make more space for themselves. But, here's the thing: they have no real community. To be frank, their "community" is shit, and no amount of their style of self-moderation is going to or will ever change that fact.
>If you can have a good community without any mod interventionNothing about self-moderation implies a good community as you've been presupposing is my point.
No.5428
>>5422It's just mindless organized spam from a discord in their case. They're nowhere near as dedicated and caring as the 2d/random posters were. Not comparable.
No.5429
>>5428But I think it's funny that the same thing happened to them. They were kicked out of there by the manager as well made their own spinoff as a result.
No.5576
>>5364I think bad posts and threads should be deleted on sight, because allowing them sets the precedent that they're acceptable. Most of the imageboards that gradually go to shit are the ones that lean too heavily on user moderation, which doesn't work in the long run.
No.11959
>>11954I inadvertently put to words my exact reasoning for my intense dislike of /secret/ (>>>/jp/61141):
>/secret/ likewise is a pale imitation [of 4/qa/]. It misinterprets the strength of 4/qa/ as being lack of moderation instead of its diversity of thought and breadth of knowledge and capability to talk on any subject. By nature of the selection bias that brings posters to Kissu, you will never be able to replicate 4/qa/ through the posters attracted here -- instead you will simply encourage less desirable behavior that is not accepted on other boards. This is why I hate /secret/. No.11960
>>11954>we can be asshats to cancerman spammersThere are no cancerman spammers on /secret/ though.
No.11961
Didn't read, but cool.
No.11962
>>11961no cool is someone else
No.11963
>>5356>For all its faults, ota is a shining example of how this can work for the betterposts that didn't age well for 500
No.11979
>>11959/secret/ is easily the best board to replicate older /qa/ of any board on kissu that exists. The diversity of thought comes from the capability to discuss anything, and what better place is there to discuss anything than a board in which the moderation has given up on a purpose for it besides it being a place to post whatever. There's no preconceived notions about what belongs there vs what doesn't, it has no rules that would bar others with opposing viewpoints, and there are no social norms for what is or isn't going too far in discussion. The board supports and has boasted some greatly long meta threads alongside trash youtube threads. Making it unrivaled by /jp/ or /qa/ in terms of general accessibility. The only thing it lacks is a reputation that would make people of different thought accumulate there. I do agree that right now it acts as a pale imitation because of its small pool of users, but I wholly disagree that the potential isn't there. Maybe you or someone else said it that "/secret/ shouldn't just be the shit board" and I agree with that, it should be the board where people say whatever comes to mind regardless of whether it fits in line with the culture of the site. More discussion of that type would probably encourage others to have a look if there was something neat going on in the board, but the chaotic and ruleless nature of it would allow for shitposts and topic derailment that somewhat livens it up in contrast to whatever boring meta people may be having. Those contentions between posters could probably even spawn its own meta too.
But this is all assuming that the people on kissu that post on /secret/ have interesting enough ideas to talk about on /secret/ that would catch anyone's eyes in the first place to grow it.
No.11981
>>11979>but the chaotic and ruleless nature of it would allow for shitposts and topic derailment that somewhat livens it up in contrast to whatever boring meta people may be having. Those contentions between posters could probably even spawn its own meta too."I can't say I really miss 4/qa/ as a whole, especially the belligerence and necessity of maintaining excessive filters"
>Maybe you or someone else said it that "/secret/ shouldn't just be the shit board"Indeed.
>it should be the board where people say whatever comes to mind regardless of whether it fits in line with the culture of the siteI still maintain, "you will simply encourage less desirable behavior that is not accepted on other boards." As you yourself conceded, I also believe there are too few users for it to function the way you're describing. In my opinion, the few number of users limits it by reinforcing the negative stereotype of it being the shitpost board, which itself is hard to overcome because there are not more users to challenge that perception and transform it into something unique. Instead, it merely acts as a foil to Kissu itself, representing an awkward melding of the posting characteristics of other spinoffs like gnfos -- because again, you're not going to eek out anything new from posters who are already attracted here, you're just going to encourage things that they wouldn't post on other boards.
I also wholeheartedly disagree with the "notoriety theory" mentioned in #qa, and alluded to in other places. That being, users are a attracted to a particular board due to notoriety, and although, "you're attracting a large amount of eyes on your site it's not just shitters that'll come over [...] it'll also be just normal posters that come to check out what the buzz is about". As is the case with every imageboard I have browsed, those sites that have an identifiable lighthouse of a board that attracts users, in every case the additional boards that the site hosts are not purely related to the topic of the board, but instead have the inflected mannerisms and posting behavior of that board that draws users in. You can observe this to be the case with Wizchan, which drew a /r9k/-style crowd, the myriad early imageboards that drew on /b/, lainchan which grew out of /g/, the spinoffs that grew out of /jp/, and so on and so on. The point I'm trying to make is that were it the case that /secret/ was the focal point of attraction, it will invariably be the case that any culture that is born there will eventually come to dominate the prevailing culture of the site in general. You cannot in good faith have a board that has the association of being a shitposting board and then claim it will not attract shitposters who will then influence the culture of the site more generally.
If it was the case that a positive culture on /secret/ was encouraged, my outlook would be very different, but any chance of that happening -- in my opinion -- died very early on when the board became little more than a place to move unsightly threads, and to contain meta posts and vermin's ukraine war thread, killing any identity the board could have had at the time; prior to this, the board was much different in demeanor, and I have little faith that the /secret/ which existed prior can ever be rekindled with the associations that users currently have of the board, and their reasons for posting there. In essence, to contradict myself, I believe it was moderation's influence which damaged the board's identity irreparably, and so the idea of it being user moderated and so on are a farce given its history, given that said history involves foisting topics not allowed elsewhere onto it.
Given your continued statements of wanting to encourage, and being accepting of, "the chaotic and ruleless nature of it [that allows] for shitposts and topic derailment," I can only accept that these decisions to move said topics to /secret/ were a deliberate attempt to alter its trajectory. Truly a conspiracy worthy of 4/qa/ if I should say so myself.
No.11982
what do people hope to achieve with posts like this?
No.11987
>>11981I think it's fair to say that it creates an atmosphere of people aping ota/gnfos since that's the kind of stuff familiar to posters here's that in the "do not post" category. But I wouldn't say that the imitation stuff is necessarily all bad, or can only be bad. Back on 4/qa/ it existed too and eventually lead to the flourishing blog thread with the imitation eventually becoming its own thing detached from the source. Without a truly terrible reason behind it I find those posts more harmless than anything. Somewhat pointless noise in an ocean of differing posts.
I think when we both talk about notoriety of the board, we have different thoughts about what the notoriety stage of it would look like. Your thoughts are probably more of typical lawless boards that all share the same culture. To me I'm more thinking notoriety from the potential arguments that could generate from it, alongside a healthy dose of moderator fuckery and experimental board design that is all fair for a board not meant to be the main culture of a site. The first is probably the hardest for this site to achieve and is probably what keeps my pipe dreams pipe dreams because of the fact that we'd need people that have the fight in them to really get passionate and go on for hundreds of posts on an argument, and I think most people still around are a bit more mellowed out than that. A small gripe I have is that we've driven off a small share of really aggressive posters that'd probably be up for passionately debating their ideas online because of the propensity they had for drama, but that's in the past and I don't think there's much we can do about that now. The mod fun should be self-explanatory with how much we mess with /secret/, and when it comes to experimental I've got a few ideas up my sleeve like handing over control of /secret/ to a new person each week to see how that goes (like /z/). The main issue with a lot of these is that for me the experiments would probably be better served with a larger population so I'm not sure how much I want to invest in them if they wouldn't really have much of an impact. But yeah, I sorta see the topic of notoriety in a more positive light and I can understand seeing what we've done so far as trying to encourage a kuso culture on /secret/. I do admit there's been some flaws with that, but I think it's gotten the board to a state in which expectations are 0 and people feel free to discuss anything in whatever tone suits them best. That which should allow for a more creatively free board where topics of discussion lean far from the usual range of /qa/ topics. And with kissu posters being the first to touch them I'd kinda trust this site more to make interesting and productive threads about taboo than anyone else so the test sample would be perfect.
My idea for moving more unsightly threads was kinda to encourage posting them elsewhere on the site where the board isn't on /all/ and representing the face of kissu and to allow people on kissu to further discuss these topics if there was any interest in them, which in a few instances, there was. The chaos would ideally be generated from a clash of viewpoints between posters here, but probably not more than anyone here has experienced on 4/qa/ itelf. And yeah, I would like more people top try and grow /secret/ somewhat healthily as it's the one board I have permission to allow stuff vermin doesn't but wants to contribute to (sometimes).
No.11988
>>11982>>11983also think posts like these would be great in /secret/ between all the serious talk and whatnot to balance out the nerd so it's still appealing to everyone.
No.11989
>>11988I'm always saying that I didnt watch such and such youtube video, I can keep doing that if you like
No.11990
I think part of the problem is that youtube thumbnails are bigger than normal image thumbnails, giving them an unfair advantage in terms of directing the attention of the casual skimmer.
No.11991
die casual skimmer
No.11993
>>11991Das casual skimmer.
No.11994
>>11992I think we're still not seeing the same picture... I don't want conflict to be the board's raison d'etre, but I'd like to see people that if given the opportunity to voice their opinions present them passionately rather than worry about the atmosphere of the board around them like one may do on /all/. Of course that would just be one facet of the board that I'd think would help to make it nice. More long metatard conversations like these that often come up as unsightly to the regular user I'd be fine with as well. Or funposts to break from the serious attitude. I don't just want the board to just devolve into exclusively flamewars that'd be antithetical to the purpose of elevating it to something better... But at the same time I guess I don't have much of a clear vision that I'd like for /secret/ that couldn't just be done on kissu proper except for discussion of more uncouth topics we wouldn't want on /all/. I guess what would your ideal for /secret/ be since I want to consider how it'd look in an ideal world.
Also since you brought up you'd rather go to kiwifarms I think you might be hung up on
>because of the propensity they had for dramaBut I don't really think those posters would be good on /secret/ for that, but because I know there's a lot more posters like those could contribute beyond drama.
No.11995
Actually when I think of the ideal /secret/ environment I just think 4/qa/ with less of the purely maliciously antagonistic individuals