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File:"I think she can do it!".jpg (210.65 KB,350x2572)

 No.6924

I have found a fresh way to look at multimedia.
This post is me ranting around Neon Genesis Evangelion, because that's how I came to the discovery, but these are not the point at all.
It's fun to see why, in terms of raw human experience, Eva (TV) got popular and inspiring for many, and how it could be possible to make what would have a more potent form of the impression it gives. I'm not viewing it as some model anime whose recipe must be followed to the T for any concept or premise as if that's the best way for anything. It's also helpful to observe the commonalities between other works, so it's possible to understand them better.

What features make a work of fiction an "Evangelion-like"? The lucid importance of each can be talked about for as much as it can be guessed intuitively, and being concise is possible.

IMPORTANT
I.1 Large mechanized units are the working horses of the main cast, additionally serving as little as a third point in a contrast network that also involves at least the main cast and the "outside" world.
I.2 The focus of the sentiment is on Mono no Aware. It's okay if the work does not abide by Mono no Aware in a traditional manner.
I.3 The work is at least light sekai-kei: it's only the consistent focus on a relationship between just two specific people that is optional. The main point is in the disproportionate, reality-warping relevance of relationships between the key cast.
I.4 The work has a welcoming mythological quality to it; it shouldn't merely count as an origin of a myth for any sequel — it should continue from at least a borrowed myth, if not the one it had handcrafted for the plot.
I.5 At least some of the main cast could be said to be common sense sensibility people put into a myth. Note that relatability without shared sensibility is possible.

OPTIONAL AMPLIFIERS FOR QUALITY
O.1 A kuudere character is featured within the main cast. Emotional detachment in face of I.4 amplifies I.2, I.3, and I.5.
O.2 At least the main character is young, because the lively youth is more relatable. Helps to amplify I.1, I.2, I.3, and I.5.
O.3 Uncanny and surreal subjects, imagery, and designs amplify I.1, I.2, I.4, and I.5.
O.4 Exposure involves multiple layers and sublayers of the world around the main cast. Amplifies I.3.

So, What Would (Not) Count?
For example, if you have only I.2, I.3, and I.5, you'd get Madoka (TV). You think you'd get an Eva-like if you put mecha in there, but Madoka (TV) does not really satisfy I.4. The Rebellion movie satisfies I.4 thanks to the prequel works filling in the mythos, but it handles I.2 in a warped way, yet, still, I think conversion to an Eva-like just by introduction of I.1 is entirely possible. Magia Record could easily become an Eva-like with just introduction of I.1.
Granbelm — "Madoka with mecha" — isn't mythological enough for I.4, despite there being contrast within I.5.
VOTOMS (TV) could feel like an Eva-like, but it has no I.4. It's rather anti-mythological.
New Getter Robo is the Getter installment closest to Eva, but its relatively prominent I.2 is not enough to count, and the main cast is, as usual, too deranged for I.5.
MegaMan Zero is a case that's interesting to me as it seems to be a close fit, but it would not count even if the main action was around piloting mecha. MegaMan Zero is too mythological. Even if Zero was being a detached half-amnesiac, it's too lacking in I.5, and whatever bond between Zero and X or Zero and Ciel there was, it didn't fulfill the core principles of I.3, as the archetypal mythology had overwhelmed them.
It's trickier to say why Muv-Luv Alternative, the best contender from Muv-Luv, doesn't fit. It's too subtle and restrained in mythology for I.4, and I.3 is too subverted to count.
Xenogears and Xenoblade Chronicles X are too lacking in I.2. The latter is straight up anti-I.3, and, somehow, the characters feel like archetypes rather than characters, so a proper I.5 is out of question for it, too.

What's funny is that, because of losing the grip on I.4, Eva Rebuilds feel less Eva than model examples like RahXephon or Gasaraki, as the Rebuilds had artificially and disproportionately invested into the unwelcoming anti-exposure narration that's typical of late/post-Gainax — it is the media equivalent of uncooperativity of an insecure schizoid man that's keeping all to himself because he's afraid of rejection. A catastrophically ironic failure to balance within the "hedgehog's dilemma."
Another peculiarity to bring up is that, just like Gundam works by Tomino (his I.4-lacking CCA would be the closest), the Armored Core installments in total have all of the features, but none has all of the features at the same time. AC6 is the closest, and is a polar opposite to Frame Gride that's just as close, but unconventionally. AC6 lacks I.2 and I.4 which Frame Gride got by trading I.3 and I.5 by having virtually no characters.

 No.6926

Hmm, in what sense do you refer to something as being mythological? However I think about it, that's the one point that I really don't understand.

 No.6930

File:Xenogears-2-GH4109ROUY-800….jpg (74.25 KB,800x600)

What is Mono no Aware? What is sekai-kei?
I agree with the "common sense sensibility people put into myth". People need to be empathetic and relatable to a degree, responding to things in a way that's understandable. I think this makes Kuudere characters kind of meh. I guess other characters can react to the robots, but ehh.
In general I don't really understand all the hype and excitement around Evangelion, and I'm someone that watched it around 2001. It's good and enjoyable, but I don't quite get the excitement. It's cool that you mentioned Xenogears, though, now that's a great game and I thought it was far more emotional than Eva.

 No.6939

>>6926
> in what sense do you refer to something as being mythological?
The most conventional sense, maybe bordering on mythos and mythopoeia.
>>6930
>What is Mono no Aware? What is sekai-kei?
I'm not even sure how to explain these, since I mean the most conventional definitions for these terms as well.

 No.6949

>>6924
I fundamentally detest excessive formalism in all forms. Something either is an Eva or it is not, it doesn't need to be sekaikei, it doesn't need to be mecha, it doesn't need to be mythological, it doesn't need a Rei clone, it doesn't need surreal imagery it doesn't need any of this.
Something is Evangelion-like when it is and it isn't when it is not.

I realize that such tautological ideas are hard to conceptualize, but ultimately, that's what association is about. If this is how you see things, that is fine, but your view is ultimately limited. Something like Alien Nine is definitely very Evangelion-like, despite not fulfilling ANY of your criteria, except I.3 and that only if you really do stretch the meaning of sekaikei.

>I.2 The focus of the sentiment is on Mono no Aware.
Eva does not feature this at all, I believe that you are misusing the term to the point where it becomes meaningless.

>What's funny is that, because of losing the grip on I.4, Eva Rebuilds feel less Eva
This is wrong, because these new films are a retelling of the original story. They might not use all of the same pieces in the same way, but it's still the same old story. I assume you are talking about the third and fourth film, but do you remember what those correspond to? Do you remember what happened in Episode 20? They are no more hostile than the original and far more welcoming than either version of 25/26 ever was.


>>6930
>What is Mono no Aware?
Mono no aware is hard to explain without drawing on examples, but it is a specific emotion, similar to, but also completely not like, nostalgia (in the traditional, medical sense). It's an understanding of the passing of things. To be uselessly flowery, it's "the feeling of a strong breeze in late summer".
It is almost "let's never come here again, because it will never be as fun", but not quite. It's not melancholy, not quite.

>What is sekai-kei?
sekaikei is a "genre" of post-Evangelion animanga and again it is nebulous at best, just like the idea of something being "eva-like". It's almost comically blank in terms what it means, but definitions people use are something along the lines of "there is a synchonicity between the protagonist's emotions and relationships and the fate of the world". Which as you might notice, doesn't actually mean very much at all. To understand how meaningless of a term sekaikei is, consider that some are calling Death Note a sekaikei work, but at least it is contentious
And, of course, the most famous sekaikei is just a parody of this nebulous genre, Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuitsu. People will point to all sorts of works like SaiKano and Hoshi no Koe, but the only one that is, in my opinion, representative of what sekaikei IS, it's the one that doesn't take it too seriously.

In general these kinds of otaku-centric terms are fairly useless, because as you will find in many more scholarly analyses, people will (correctly) claim they tend to describe a "feeling", rather than something specific. Mostly related to the 3 big catastrophes of 1995 in Japan. The great Hanshin earthquake, the Tokyo subway sarin gas attack and Neon Genesis Evangelion. Consider post-9/11 sentiment in American media of the early 2000s, it's kind of like that, except it isn't like this.
Basically, you can keep listing out things, especially late 90s and early to mid 2000s and find that many of them are at least vaguely sekaikei. For example, Maihime is sekaikei. Kidou Senkan Nadesico is sekaikei. Lain is sekaikei. F/SN is sekaikei. Madlax is sekaikei. Silent Hill is sekaikei. Devilman is sekaikei. Ideon is not sekaikei. Kidou Senshi Gundam is not sekaikei. Macross is proto-sekaikei. Macross F is sekaikei. Nier (and Nier Automata) are sekaikei. Madoka is not sekaikei, but Hangyaku no Monogatari is sekaikei. Yuuki Yuuna wa Yuusha de Aru is sekaikei. Bakemonogatari is kind of sekaikei.
I hope that this list is unhelpful in understanding what sekaikei is and I hope that I have written out sekaikei enough times by now that Gestaltzerfall has set in and the term has now rightly lost both meaning and form as a word.

Ultimately saying that "sekaikei is when the music is good" is likely more accurate than listing out all the "requirements" for a work to be sekaikei and then throwing out two thirds of that list anyway.

In summary, seikaikei refers to a vague sentiment in the media landscape of Japan in the late 90s to the mid-2000s (and beyond). It is also an utterly useless term.

 No.6955

>>6939
The defining, eponymous feature of sekai-kei is that the characters' inner world is massively extended to the point of becoming as important as the external world, or more so. A longer definition is one I have here in a paper, quoting Kasai Kiyoshi from 2009:
>A group of works in which the small, everyday life problem of the relationship (kimi to boku) of the protagonist (boku, i.e. a male) and the heroine in his thoughts (kimi), and an abstract, extraordinary large problem such as ‘a world crisis’ or ‘the end of the world,’ are simplistically connected directly without a (midway) interposition of a completely concrete (social) context.
Or this other snippet from Uno Tsunehiro:
>Also called ‘Post-Evangelion Syndrome.’ A series of otaku-type works which remove [concepts such as] ‘society’ and ‘nation’ while extending ‘one’s own feelings’ or ‘self-consciousness’ to perceive them on the scope of ‘the world.’
So Gundam is not sekai-kei for reasons identical to the ones Hiroki Azuma gives in crediting Evangelion with the shift towards database consumption instead of narrative consumption: Gundam deals with society, with a storied world, with war, Eva focuses on a small circle of characters while most of humanity is as conspicuously absent as it is in Monogatari, Tokyo-3 is positively devoid of life at times. Consider episode 6, where they use up all of Japan's electricity to deal with Ramiel, and none of the logistical issues or consequences of such a feat are ever mentioned, they just go ahead and do it. The repercussions on society simply do not matter, it effectively doesn't exist. Much more important are Shinji and Rei's feelings. Likewise, in Haruhi the fate of existence literally hinges on keeping her in check, it's the whole point.

The problem with this is that a stupidly xbox fuckhueg amount of Japanese stories changed to follow its example, and the industry has since profited far more from focusing on individual characters than on their stories. Evangelion caused a shift in the entire industry, and people sought to gain as much money as Gainax did with its mountains of merchandise. It stopped being useful as a way to delineate a genre, especially because a lot of its proposed criteria were routinely deviated from. Even the foremost principle isn't very specific, because matching the internal and external is useful for storytelling so there were already works prior to Eva doing such things.

>>6939
It's that Eva isn't folkloric, it doesn't have any of the dynamics or role of classic myth, and it's actually quite minimal in its worldbuilding so not very mythopoeic either. It does a lot with fairly little, because what it does have is both heavily obscured and deeper than usual. But it's not LotR, quite the opposite as per the above. What I would personally refer to as mythological would be Magus' Bride, because it does an amazing job at having what seemed to me like an actualized mythological world with mythological workings.

 No.6974

>>6949
>Mono no aware is...
>but it is a specific emotion, similar to, but also completely not like, nostalgia (in the traditional, medical sense)

Hmm, I guess I can sort of understand? Just a feeling of comfort and familiarity?

>sekaikei is a "genre" of post-Evangelion animanga and again it is nebulous at best,
>the term has now rightly lost both meaning and form as a word.
If all those things are "Sekai-kei" I'm not sure what similarities they have to each other. I guess you've succeeded because I have no idea!

>>6955
>The defining, eponymous feature of sekai-kei is that the characters' inner world is massively extended to the point of becoming as important as the external world, or more so.
Hmm, this I can understand a bit. Lots of inner monologues and stuff of that nature. It's not really a narrative thing I'm a fan of, as I think it focuses too much on listing what characters are thinking instead of showing their thoughts through actions.

 No.6985

>>6974
>Just a feeling of comfort and familiarity?
not at all
It's the awareness that time is passing, the feeling of the changing seasons that sort of thing.

>>6974
>If all those things are "Sekai-kei" I'm not sure what similarities they have to each other.
They don't really have any. Sekai-kei is, as I pointed out, more of a feeling than a genre. It's a largely meaningless term, you might as well call it "post-Eva malaise".

 No.6986

File:.jpg (1.68 MB,1904x2054)

>>6985
>>Just a feeling of comfort and familiarity?
>not at all
>It's the awareness that time is passing, the feeling of the changing seasons that sort of thing.
This description is indistinguishable from Mujo Jinsoku's.

Words are tough to deal with wherever people are concerned. I'll redo my media exploration methodology someday.

 No.6987

>>6986
>This description is indistinguishable from Mujo Jinsoku's.
kind of, but it's different




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