No.72553
>>72552wrote a corny long post but decided to delete it
love is selfish and homu did nothing wrong
No.72556
Love isn't real. It's just a word you use to frame other emotions in a more positive light by masking their true nature. At least using it for something you just really like is simple and relatively free of deception.
No.72559
it's just burgers who misuse the term btw
No.72560
Love carries ideas of self-sacrifice, things like the willingness to give up personal comforts, bodily safety, and even mental well being for the sake of something that's close enough to the heart to be nearly consistent with one's own sense of self. Greatly liking something seems similar to it but there's a destructive compulsiveness that liking something doesn't have. It's good to love things.
No.72563
>>72553>love is selfish and homu did nothing wrongdoes that mean selfishness is good or uhhh i don't get it
No.72565
>>72563>>72554watch the movie, homu
saved her gf and destroyed qb (her only real threat). selfishness can be good. it's ultimately a subjective word based on a real feeling and i don't agree with the common idea that it must be selfless or self sacrificial for it to be called love (it can be, but everyone has their limits).
No.72566
>>72565well that is a bit of a consequentialist interpretation since other characters in-universe didn't like what she pulled off in the slightest and i'm not sure anyone foresaw that it'd turn out like that
had it worked out differently it would've been seen as simply possessiveness with a liquidation of those that stood against her, and a lot of viewers (like me) didn't understand that the result was good either
No.72568
>>72561I had forgotten what love was until I saw this image and was reminded of Ranze. Ah, so that's what love is. It's like shampoo.
No.72570
>>72561If love is real, how come I've never felt it? Checkmate atheists.
No.72593
>>72566love triumphed and that's what matters to me.
No.72597
I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as "love", is in fact, chemicals, or as I've recently taken to calling it, dopamine. Love is not an feeling unto itself, but rather another state of mind of a fully functioning psyche made possible by testosterone, estrogen, dopamine, oxytocin, and vasopressin comprising neurotransmitters often referred as "libido". Many people experience some part of "love" every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the most widely experienced part of it is often called "Sex drive", and many people are not aware that it is basically all dopamine. There really is a "love", and these people are experiencing it, but it is just a part of the chemical balance they have. Love is the concepts: The word in the dictionary that people refer to when they experience a cocktail of chemicals. The concept is an essential part of our lives but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of the situation. Love is normally used in combination with the sex hormones: the whole concept is basically oxycotin with gonadocorticoids added, or dopamine. All the so-called feelings of "love" are really just different combinations of base chemicals.
No.72599
hate these reductionist nerds so much it's unreal
No.72600
>>72597Is there a meaning in taking love apart like this, when you are still using words like "I" and "you", that also are nothing but emergent properties of the complex systems that make up our bodies (mostly, but not just our brains)?
Why do you hold feelings that are not love to such a lofty standard that you preserve the classification of feeling for them when they too are nothing but chemically induced altered mind states?
There may be reason to analyze what we consider love and reclassify (parts of) it. But the fact that we are chemical computers is not one of them.
No.72601
>>72597>libido>Sex driveI don't think that's quite correct because my brain sees sexual attraction and this sensation:
>>72561 as two separate things. In fact, I cannot feel both at the same time. There must be something wired wrong in my brain however, because this doesn't seem very evolutionary-friendly. But I mean, it IS possible for teenagers to love each other without wanting to have sex, right? I must be still stuck with wanting the innocent teenage love experience.
No.72602
>>72599feeling's mutual freak
No.72603
>>72602u mad ur getting pwned rn
No.72606
whos getting pwned now
No.72607
I mean there's like many a different versions of love if you wanna split hairs about what loving something is.
Like there's the platonic love between frens, which is not gay.
No.72608
>>72604ok thanks, but I wasn't the only one who couldn't recognize it.
>>72606mad because calling you a nerd was accurate
No.72609
i like the idea of love as that of something whose simple existence makes you happy
or like that one phrase from spinoza "love is nothing but joy with the accompanying idea of an external cause"
see it as lining up with
>>72560 in that you'd want to protect or further that something's well being
No.72615
>>72613Teenage love is like 90% sex drive tempered by 10% social anxiety. The closest thing to romantic love without sexual desire is probably old married couples who have already fucked each other enough for one lifetime.
No.72617
>>72616Real life isn't anime, anon. The only thing keeping teens, beings at the height of their sexual power, from fucking is the understanding that there are consequences to doing so, the most important of which is not pregnancy or STDs but rather social blowback (e.g. being called a whore or a sukebi). Those anime pure loves are a part of a broader system painting promiscuity as immoral in order to increase the weight of social anxiety so teens are less likely to give in.
No.72618
I thought it was just because sex is treated as some sort of end goal and if they get to it too soon then the anime is basically over because the authors don't know what to write after that.
No.72620
>>72615>90% sex drive tempered by 10% social anxiety.I think your percentages are wildly off, and often the complete opposite of what you said. (in my case it was 1%, 99%, and I just gave up)
>>72616The problem with their sex lives is often not their lack of sex drives, but usually the abundance of it, which breeds social anxiety. "Can I?" "May I?" "should I?" "Am I a horrible person?"
They don't know any of this, and are exploring it for the first time. That's why alcohol is so popular with teens.
No.72621
>>72619>Am I just defective then? They used to call whatever you have a maddona-whore complex. Look it up.
No.72622
>>72616>because teenage couples are not ready for sex straight away. Uhhhhh when was the last time you've seen a teenager? The youth of today don't even really date anymore or it lasts at best a couple weeks. It's all hookups maybe with a couple of days of "rizzing" preamble. This doesn't apply to every teen obviously, but the vast majority just cut directly to the chase and after they have enough they just casually move on to the next person without so much as an official break up (not that there was any official "hook up" to begin with).
This sort of things kicks off as early as middle school, I can't tell if it's just the Internet's influence or the stuff in the food makes kids uncontrollable.
Personally I had barely much of a sex drive at all until I hit 20 years of age, so I can't really tell if I was just oblivious to everyone around me getting crazy horny on the daily or if the more recent generations are unhinged, but I think there are a lot of kids that did the dirty before they even really felt the lust for it. But yeah, teen couples are far,
far from being not ready for immediate fucking.
No.72624
File:m.jpg (353.62 KB,1225x697)
>>72621Oh yeah, it's Freud shit so it HAS to result from wanting to fuck your mother or something. None of this really applies to me, except maybe my mom being a bit overprotective.
No.72626
>>72619>Am I just defective then? You're on an anime imageboard trying to extrapolate teenage psychology from your masturbatory relationships with fictional characters.
>>72620>I just gave upBecause your percentages were wildly off. Too much anxiety and you end up with status quo-maintaining inaction, relationships don't form when desire doesn't outweigh hesitation (unless someone else is arranging it for you, but modern society has mostly dispensed of this as not "loving" enough). It's an issue that the amount of pressure from peers and authority that would prevent a normal person from crossing the finish line would cause a person inclined to worrying to never even start the race.
No.72628
>>72622Japanese teenagers are pure in my headcanon.
>>72626You didn't have to put it so bluntly.
No.72630
>>72629It contains no enjo kousai though.
No.72631
>>72630not every girl does that...
No.72633
>>72632ah lol, 三十 instead of 十三?
No.72635
>>72632>Special Rapporteurtook me like 5 minutes to figure out that this was basically just an official government name for their reporters fucking frencies
No.72640
>>72638Yeah, 2D enjo rates would be way higher than 30%. I see you're waifu down in Shibuya almost every day.
No.72642
>>72641Have you been watching Majo to Yajuu?
No.72644
>>72643Her love is twisted because it's so selfless.
Rather than accept her personal bliss and join Madoka in yuri heaven, she decides that what Madoka really wants is some more time with her family.
She will be the devil if that's what it takes to give Madoka this normalcy. She will even dance with QB (instead of scissoring Madoka). That's why she looks so wasted, too. In the bubble of happiness that she created for the Madoka-split, she is but an intruder. She is not really with her.Or did I misunderstand the movie?
No.72648
>>72624Freud is a perv and 2d love is unconventional. I only wanted to let you know those feelings of yours (and me, to a lesser extent) aren't something that hadn't been explored before. You could look up Tamaki Saito if you want to see someone exploring the 2D side of it. I personally don't care much for academic interpretations of otaku culture. You don't know how much I restrained myself from replying to this with the innocuous fact that "psychology is a jewish invention" and leave it at that.
No.72650
>>72643Homura doesn't accept eternal recurrence at all. Her reaffirmation, conclusion, just like in Higurashi comes from breaking free from the cycle, not from accepting it. What would've actually been nietzcshean would've been to let things end with Walpurgisnacht and instead cherishing her time with others before it. She's terrifed of the end and suffers endlessly because of it. What she pursued is much closer to a warped kind of buddhism, all for the sake of obtaining a different outcome. A lot of anime characters can seem nietzschean but in reality what they usually end up doing is replacing a corrupt elite with a virtuous one because that's what's supposed to make society run the best.
Arguably, she continues to work within a moralistic framework too by calling herself evil (今の私は“魔”なるもの) and a demon in response to other's dislike of what she has done, and after an altered Madoka says that she should be having a different role, a different form, Homura responds by stating that one day they'll become enemies one day, like she earlier taunts Sayaka by threatening to destroy the world after she calls herself a disruptor of the universe. She wouldn't say these things if her actions hadn't planted the seeds for future conflict. She's keeping Madoka down.
No.72651
>>72650Both Madoka and Homura played with the rules of Kyubey's system and altered it on a fundamental level, Madoka in making it so witches no longer exists and Homura in denying the basic premise of the cyclical logic, that despair in itself is a bad thing when it's in reality another facet of the feelings she holds for Madoka. It's closer to amor fati than it is to rejection of the cycle. She can still be judged within a moral framework but she's not a subject of it, she herself decides what they really mean, if being evil is necessary then that's what she'd be. She does, however, try to break Madoka free from her fate, by extension freeing everyone else from theirs as well, much like with all the other characters the rejection of what they find fulfilling is what'll eventually lead to conflict.
No.72654
Here's a paper about revolutionary confucianism:
https://sci-hub.st/https://www.jstor.org/stable/2377413>The prince asked what should be done to secure the submission of the people, and Confucius said, "Advance the upright and set aside the crooked, then the people will submit. Advance the crooked and set aside the upright, then the people will not submit." In other words the people's revolt comes from the bad management of the ruler and his lack of conscience in discriminating men.>He warns them of destruction, if righteousness is neglected. He teaches that the natural consequence of such remissness in the ruler will be disaffection among the people, and probably uprisings and even revolution. Revolt against wickedness, not against a form of government, or against a government capable of improvement, commands his approval.This is what anime characters typically do, against all those stupid fat ugly nobles and malicious churches.
And then about Nietzsche and eternal recurrence, from the man himself:
>What if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness, and say to you, 'This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence–>'The eternal hourglass of existence is turned over again and again, and you with it, speck of dust!’ Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment when you would have answered him: ‘You are a god, and never have I heard anything more divine.’It could be said that every time loop story is a repudiation of this idea.
>>72651But she
doesn't love her fate, that's her motivation. She
doesn't like the demon. She does everything possible to avoid it, as you said she breaks others free from it. Homura does live with regret over her failures. Changing the game doesn't make you nietzschean either, otherwise wouldn't that apply to Christ?
No.72655
>>72654Both Christ and Madoka still work within the system that they change, the same thing can't said about Homura. Framing the entirety of morality as something self-conceived is the difference, is what makes it Nietzschean, and what separates Homura's alteration of the rules from Madoka's. I do think Homura doesn't like that she's taken up the role of a demon, but it's also not something she's avoided even if she feels guilt from it. She very intentionally embraced that role. She also self-deprecatingly throws tomatoes at herself, she still blames herself for the entire situation. What she rejects is the idea that Madoka has to suffer in order to save all other magical girls of the consequences of their own wishes, at the same time she also rejects what makes Madoka great and what made her love her to begin with just to preserve the Madoka that existed before she became a magical girl. She does love her fate of having to protect Madoka, she just hates what she has to do in order to fulfill her own wish.
Although "role" is a better description of that fate, since it's hers and hers only rather than the more general fate of the universe. If Homura ever does manage to save her then I could see it as fulfilling the idea of eternal recurrence, but even otherwise she willingly jumps into each loop despite the immense suffering she goes through each time. It's the moment when all her suffering is justified that she's looking for.
No.72657
>>72655>the same thing can't said about Homura.Why not? Madoka introduced the Law of Cycles, Homura tweaked it. Where's the rupture? Why does Madoka's universal selflessness not count as a different kind of morality, when it's going against QB's wishes and drastically altering the intended nature of magical girls?
And the concept of fate is being bent here to mean whatever outcome occurs, which renders it meaningless. If the demon's recurrence is eternal and inescapable, that's because there is only one determined fate. Being able to go in a different direction and choosing to do so breaks with both that concept and amor fati:
>Amor fati: let that be my love from now on! I do not want to wage war against ugliness. I do not want to accuse; I do not even want to accuse the accusers. Let looking away be my only negation! And, all in all and on the whole: some day I want only to be a Yes-sayer!Homura says
no. Homura negates the hand she was dealt.
No.72659
>>72657The only thing Homura tweaked was the entire universe and the foundations upon which Kyubey's system relied on by introducing the concept of her love into the mix. The entire system is nullified, all that's left is the interaction between herself and Madoka, and even that is the Madoka she wishes could be saved rather than the Madoka that Madoka wants to be.
>If the demon's recurrence is eternal and inescapable, that's because there is only one determined fateThere's the concept of necessity which compels beings to move in a particular way, the development of the narrative doesn't have to be known to the actors that play the parts. It's not bending as much as it is acknowledging that the rules of the game, and the ultimate conclusion, aren't known until they are. If things did eternally return again and again, you would still feel that you are making novel choices each time, without that the concept is pointless since there will a subtle shift just by the mere knowledge of what's to come.
>Homura says no. Homura negates the hand she was dealt.There's truth to this, but I've never felt Nietzsche to be accurate with his words. Homura didn't eliminate Kyubey out of the game, but she did expose him as merely being another player.
No.72660
>>72659>The only thing Homura tweaked was the entire universe and the foundations upon which Kyubey's system relied on by introducing the concept of her love into the mix.Hmm, maybe you'll have to elaborate on this or otherwise we'll be talking past each other.
>If things did eternally return again and again, you would still feel that you are making novel choices each time, without that the concept is pointless since there will a subtle shift just by the mere knowledge of what's to come.That's something you're extrapolating, not what Nietzsche says, quoting him again:
>‘This life as you now live it and have lived it you will have to live once again and innumerable times again; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unspeakably small or great in your life must return to you, all in the same succession and sequence – even this spider and this moonlight between the trees, and even this moment and I myself. The eternal hourglass of existence is turned over again and again, and you with it, speck of dust!’He's being very specific about it, explicitly stating every single thing will occur again. But he says nothing about keeping your memories, it's about what the thought makes you feel at the end, about your regrets, your desires to have done things differently, and how that
won't occur. What the demon tells you is "the heaviest weight:"
>If this thought gained power over you, as you are it would transform and possibly crush you; the question in each and every thing, ‘Do you want this again and innumerable times again?’ would lie on your actions as the heaviest weight! No.72664
>>72660Kyubey's farm of human emotions relied on granting a girl a wish so that they can eventually reach a crescendo of despair, harvesting that particular emotional low (high) point since it seemed to give off more energy than it consumed, and then letting the witch spread despair in equal proportion to the hope that she once spread. Madoka worked within the system and changed it so that no witch could ever be born again, she herself taking on the burden of the curse for them, but the fundamental logic of why Kyubey's system originally worked was still being acknowledged. She "reordered" the universe. Despair exists as the polar opposite of hope, both fight each other, neither can exist in the same space as the other. Homura's love is the rejection of that fundamental framework, the despair she feels is proof of her love, the pain she felt proof of her devotion, she gives the strongest
Yes to it all in acceptance of everything as being what lead to the creation of the love that is only felt by her and her alone. She rejected the idea that hope and despair exist in conflict with each other, rather, they're both expressions of love.
>But he says nothing about keeping your memoriesThat's the biggest difference between Homura and that concept. I didn't mean to imply a person keeps his memory each return.
No.72721
>>72665It's about a girl (biological, if not mental) who wants to kiss a girl she doesn't love.
On the journey to find that girl, she kisses other girls whom she also holds no love for.
As the story progresses, she falls in love with a guy. But if she ever gives him a kiss out of love, she will turn into a beast (arguably a man).
Classic romance.