No.67884
出す is the verb you're looking for. 出し is just the 連用形 of it. so Xの中に出したい
No.67885
>>67884forgot to mention 中出ししたい seems ok but personally I haven't seen it as much.
No.67886
>>67884But OP wants to practice the fetish of nakadashi with Korbo. In your example you're breaking apart the words that make up nakadashi and applying conjugations to them.
No.67887
>>67886I think you can use と in that case.
No.67888
に
No.67890
you can't use で like that
No.67891
コルボのキツキツ豊潤生おマ〇コに全力思い込めて中出しして欲しい
No.67892
>>67890Can you explain why? で denotes the location an action takes place. In this instance, Holo is the location where the action of 中出しする (I think it can be turned into a verb with する, right?) happens. Or rather, wants to happen. Lewd!
This also sounds right to me
>>67889. Is one more correct than the other?
No.67893
ホロの中に出したい I want to let it out inside Holo.
ホロに中出ししたい I want to cum inside Holo.
ホロと中出ししたい I want to do nakadashi with Holo.
中出しして欲しい means you want someone else to do it.
No.67895
>>67892で is more akin to a place you're incidentally at. Horo isn't a place, but her insides are.
No.67896
>>67893And who made
you the president of Japan!?
No.67897
>>67893"I want to cum inside Holo" is not "I want" per se but more of "I wish something breaks the barrier between Holo and me in the reality"
No.67898
どんなアニメキャラにも中だししたらいいのに
No.67899
>Japanese is fun to learn.
What exactly do you mean by that?
No.67900
>>67899He's a beginner so he isn't suffering yet.
No.67903
>>67902You should've already know the answer if you think a little about what kinds of people in the world would use or learn Chinese.
No.67910
>>67903Russians, obviously.
No.71480
>>71478Those fake hand drawing whiteboards always bother me.
No.71520
>>71478Honestly, it's a bit of a waste of time unless you're interested in Japanese linguistics or want to talk to Japanese people and pass as a native. And trying to pass as a native is stupid, because they can tell from your face, and if they couldn't, they could tell from other things in your speech like unnatural grammar and limited vocabulary, and if you're adept enough with the language that you can formulate natural Japanese, you're already capable of picking up pitch accent naturally without going out of your way to study it. tl;dr watch anime and play voiced erotic games.
No.71542
>>67893My first thought was ホロを中出ししたい for 'I want to nakadashi Holo', as the English sentence was phrased in the OP. Would that also work or is there something wrong with that construction?
No.71550
>>71542Translating from English doesn't make much sense when the English sentence has a Japanese word incorrectly shoehorned into it. に is the particle you would use.
No.71602
>>71478this video taught me more about english than japanese
No.71790
>>71780blame china
but at least historically speaking it kinda made sense why a logographic writing system would be useful in huge polity like china due to its linguistical diversity
the funniest thing though is that every other country that was not only inside chinese cultural sphere but was straight up controlled/was a tributary of china dropped chinese characters and adopted a sane writing system except the japanese
No.71793
>>71780I agree Kanji is difficult, but I enjoy learning the grammar.
No.71794
>>71793Other way around for me. Kanji are cool and fun to learn whereas grammar is much more messy and frustrating. If I don't know a kanji it is easy enough to look it up and learn it whereas that's much harder to do for points of grammar, and grammar can be used very flexibly whereas kanji is much more rigid so simple rote learning isn't typically good enough for it. Kanji also make it easier to learn new words with them since it helps them stand out from the million other similar sounding words (compare that to the fucking nightmare that onomatopoeic words are to remember and distinguish), and allows you to have a decent guess at the meaning of new words you read without having to look them.
No.71795
>>71794I don't know. The fact that most kanji have different readings/pronunciation based on the word they're in is what I really struggle with. Also some of them are extremely similar and my brain mixes up which one it's supposed to be.
No.71796
>>71795Anon, are you perhaps studying/trying to read each Kanji individually?
No.71797
>>71796>trying to readand/or trying to remember
No.71799
>>71795>The fact that most kanji have different readings/pronunciation based on the word they're in Why would that make it any harder to learn new words than if there were no kanji? Just memorize the 1-2 most common on'yomi for the kanji when learning the kanji for the first time, since those are what are going to be used in the vast majority of words using it (kun'yomi typically being distinct to a particular word and anything derived from that), and then when learning new words that use the kanji you just have to remember the particular pronunciation of the word. The only added difficulty compared to learning kana-only words is that you have to tie the right kanji to the pronunciation, but given it has to share either a meaning (most useful for kun'yomi words where the kanji stands by itself and the word means roughly the same as the kanji) or reading (most useful for on'yomi words since you should already have learnt these pronunciations along with the kanji) with the kanji that shouldn't be too hard to get down.
>Also some of them are extremely similar and my brain mixes up which one it's supposed to be.The best way I find to solve that is to take note of which kanji you commonly get confused, study which parts are different between them and then try to look out for those particular features when you come across one of them. Even if you frequently get two kanji confused though, as long as you know both of them then you can often tell them apart by context since most of the time they aren't going to be able to appear in words together with the same other kanji (single kanji words are obviously an exception to that).
No.71800
>>71796No. I study words though Anki. But words like 日、明日、木曜日、毎日 all have different pronunciations of 日. Not that I mess simple words like these up, but that's what I mean.
>>71799When I first come across a new word, my brain associates that pronunciation with the kanji, and then when I learn a new word with the same kanji that has a different pronunciation, I have difficulty linking that new pronunciation with it. It's something that I know I'll eventually just memorize due to repetition, but it feels like it slows down my learning a lot because I default to the wrong thing.
I'm still having fun though and being able to read simple sentences without issue is very rewarding. I can't wait until I can read manga and VNs.
No.71802
>>71801>Western languages use spacesSo do lots of Eastern written languages...
No.71803
>>71802>I'm still having fun though and being able to read simple sentences without issue is very rewarding. I can't wait until I can read manga and VNs.SoL manga at least doesn't really require much beyond being able to read simple sentences (and in a sense is easier as there are pictures for context) so you probably should be able to do so now/soon, as long as you don't mind going slow and looking stuff up you are unsure about. VNs on the other hand are an utter slog to read - I would suggest forgetting that one for the near future.
No.71806
>>71803I think you meant to quote someone else.
No.71807
>>71803Yeah I just started reading Yotsubato a few days ago. The slang slows me down, though. The end goal is for me to be able to read VNs. I don't expect to do that anytime soon.
No.71848
What's the best way to remember keigo? I learn and remember most all of the Japanese I've studied but always seem to forget about it.
No.71849
>>71848Depends on what you're struggling with.
No.78603
I haven't been keeping up with my studies so much aside from the occasional raw H-game and eromanga. Probably should get back into regular practice so I don't lose too much...
No.81099
>>81098From
https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1347133983:勇者は、勇気のある者。
ドラゴンの退治をしたジークフリートや、日本の那須与一などです。
英雄とは、伝説に残り、民衆から畏怖や羨望の目で見られ、崇められる者のことです。
ウェールズを統治したアーサー王や、魔王と恐れられた織田信長がこれにあたります。
大きな違いは、
勇者はほとんどの場合、悪者を退治する、多勢に単騎で挑むこと。
それに反して、英雄は多少悪者であっても英雄と呼ばれることがあること。
又、その人自身は戦わずとも、戦が上手ければ英雄と呼ばれるということです。Rough translation:
A 「勇者」 is one who is courageous (has courage/勇気).
Examples: Siegfried, who slayed dragons, and Nasu no Yoichi from Japan('s history).
An 「英雄」 is one who remains in legend and is looked upon and revered with awe and envy by the people.
Examples: King Arthur, who ruled Wales, and Oda Nobunaga, who was feared as a demon king.
The main difference is,
a 「勇者」 almost always defeats the bad guys, single-handedly taking on the multitudes.
On the other hand, 「英雄」 are sometimes called heroes even if they are somewhat bad guys.
Also, even if the person himself does not fight, he can be called an 「英雄」 if he is good at fighting. No.81105
"勇者" is probably more literally translated as "brave", but that has a lot of native american connotations to it so I think people often use "hero" instead. Still, you sometimes get things like GaoGaiGar勇者の王 which got localized as GaoGaiGar King of the Braves.
No.81106
>>81105>GaoGaiGar勇者の王 which got localized as GaoGaiGar King of the Braves.Oh yeah, there's also 「六花の勇者」that got translated as "Rokka: Braves of the Six Flowers".
No.81129
>>81099So 勇者 would be more the Hero that gets a thing done while 英雄 would be more of a historical legend.
No.87478
>>87464桃
桃かわいい
And it looks like she miswrote the 篭 in 篭絡 as ⿱?亀.
At least she didn't mix 堕落 up with 墜落 like I did when I was reading the manga.
No.87797
>>87794Too bad the best way to remember how to read a kanji is to obsessively write it down along with others until you know it by heart, which is what I do whenever I'm trying to read something and want to kill myself afterwards because it feels so shit.
No.88380
For Anki on mobile I got a 6000 card (Eng->Jp) set... wondering how many cards to do per day. I set it to 40 which will be 150 days of learning. I wonder if this is fine...
They say 10,000 words is required for a degree of fluency... does this mean in half a year I could be half way fluent
No.88381
had studied for a month or two a few years ago and am an anime pro so I know the grammatical structure well enough to figure it out with just a focus on vocabulary. Also fuck kanji, I can learn that if I need to
No.88382
>>88381haha.... if only that initial understanding held throughout the entire learning process
No.88383
>>88382statement too vague for me to understand
No.88384
>>88381You'll learn very quickly how important Kanji is. Japanese has WAY too many homophones plus Kanji helps break sentences up in a language that does not use spaces like we do.
No.88385
>>88383When I first started learning Japanese I felt the exact same way about the grammar as I had heard it in anime before and also it's deceptively easy at first to grasp and compare to English as well, but as you get deeper into things the exact structure becomes near impossible to compare as things become more context-based.
No.88387
>>88384People speak Japanese just fine without someone writing out subtitles behind them.
This issue probably lends into the picture related problem so I've already addressed it with my initial mindset. After which it's mentally associating what's being talked about with the internal dictionary of words.
https://japanesetactics.com/how-many-words-do-you-need-to-be-fluent-in-japanesethe article addresses the issue in the lines
>(1) – The different levels of formality in Japanese.>(2) – The high level of precision in the Japanese language.after which he says
>Generally speaking, you need to know about 3,000 – 5,000 Japanese words to be fluent in the language. Which is to say that there are various grammar issues that make the number of words required for fluency larger
No.88389
>>88387>People speak Japanese just fine without someone writing out subtitles behind them.It's fine for colloquial Japanese, but becomes hard with literal Japanese where the number of vocabulary increases and so is the pronunciation ambiguity.
Just turn on any Japanese TV program - most of the news or entertainment programs are accompanied with lots of on-screen texts that essentially subtitles matching >90% of what is being spoken in real time. You can't find that on Western TV shows. Only drama shows don't have them, but they use colloquial Japanese.
No.88390
>>88387That post is so dumb. Why use the BRITISH flag to represent ENGLISH when Welsh, Scots, Scottish Gaelic, Irish Gaelic and Ulster Scots are spoken throughout the country. Someone's a little racist...
No.88394
>>88389well it's good then that my reason for learning to listen to Japanese is very specificly focused on their so called ASMR content(it's anything but).
No.88396
>>88390They should use the English flag to represent English, it's the only logical option.
No.88397
Most games can be machine translated, text can be OCR translated, most anime and manga get professionally translated. Unless you're really into a niche of the above or want to/actively speak to Japanese people then there's no reason to go through the effort of learning the language.
But the niche audio-only Japanese content is something which will never be translated and computer translations remain completely unlikely to exist. So the reason to learn Japanese for audio-only is much more realistic.
No.88399
>>88387This relates to what
>>88385 said, that's a part of why it's so contextual but there are also pitch accents that can be used in spoken Japanese but not in written Japanese. For example, hana(nose) and hana(flower) would be spelt the same in Hiragana but in spoken Japanese the sound slightly different.
No.88400
>>88397A lot of anime and games are translated poorly and heavily Americanised.
No.88402
>>88400you're into the niche of wanting accuracy or honesty. I can suffice without accuracy. In some cases a troll-sub would be fine because it gives an explanation for the pictures on the screen
No.88403
>>88397Translated Japanese media is not the original media, it's more of the translator's interpretation of the media; and since its Japanese to English translation, two vastly different languages, there is a huge lose of meaning through translation. Not to mention machine translation is shit and with "professionally" translated media you never know where the translators added their own propaganda in it, I think there's plenty of reason to want to learn Japanese to read Japanese media.
No.88404
>>88402I'm in the niche of wanting what the subs say to actually be a reflection of what is spoken on screen, I am watching anime for the anime, not for the American subbers false interpretation of it, if I wanted that kind of thing I would be watching American media in the first place.
No.88405
>>88403I made no statement that it's good, but that there exists a stronger reason because no other alternative exists. Someone who says they're fine with machine translations is never going to be convinced by you that they should learn Japanese because they're already accepting that the loss of information is acceptable for the time they have and are more interested in an explanation for the pictures on the screen rather than a comprehension of the script. They probably do not feel it's a good use of their time to learn the language.
However, if someone says they want to listen to a radioshow then this person has no other option than to learn Japanese. There are no escape routes for the learner other than to embrace that they will never know... an admission that no enthusiast of vtubers or other content would ever want to admit.
No.88406
also the slippery slope of "translations do not do source material justice" is borderline insanity because then I could just say "well you've never lived in Japan so you will never get it". Which would just be as stupid as the argument you're trying to push
No.88407
>>88405I'm not trying to convince anyone to learn a new language. You said there's no reason, I listed out the most common reasons one might want to.
>>88406No? You "get it" as you go learning the language and consuming media in said language. You don't need to live in Japan for that. Most of the culture shown in media is just that, culture shown in media, enough exposure to Japanese media and you'll "get it", that does not require living in Japan. Sure, you might miss some of the references, but your understanding is still closer to the source than someone reading the translation. The Japanese language itself is full of nuances untranslatable to English, you don't need to have lived in Japan to understand those nuances, you need knowledge of the language.
No.88408
>>88407>I'm not trying to convince anyone to learn a new languagethen stop derailing this thread
No.88411
>>88403>you never know where the translators added their own propaganda in itTo be fair, when this happens you'll know because a huge stink is made about it.
When it comes to translation its often incompetence rather than malice.
No.88416
I learned Jap without Anki and by jumping head(Kanji) first, having used up less time than the average native gets.
No.88422
>>88411Not really. As long as the tl makes sense in English, basically no one cares about accuracy relative to the Japanese script. 95% of criticism of fan translations is encoding, ts, timing, typos, or "subs fucking when?".
No.88602
>>88601>40>40That's a lot of new cards everyday...
No.88603
>>88602it's fine, I know all the words in the lower one. Lower is mostly the same cards. as the upper but with a. few variations.
top one is a bit harder.
No.88679
easy 1 hour of studying a day
No.88902
memorizing basic japanese words to get a vague idea of what's going on without subs
feel like i'm wasting my time
No.88905
don't bother with anime
https://japaneseasmr.comfind something here or maybe someone has a site with Japanese radio shows and interviews
No.88907
Learning hyougai is peak wasting time, in the abyss of the human mind, on the graveyard of language.
No.88974
I did 100 new cards yesterday plus 20 new cards today, because they were "sugoi means amazing" difficulty. I am the best beginner
No.88975
>>88974what deck of flashcards?
No.88978
>>88977Yeah, I'm using Anki. But as you can see, I'm taking retarded shortcuts. It's my fear of commitment.
No.89045
"review forgotten cards" is a great feature
No.89549
learning vocabulary through pure audio is hard. The pure listening learner might have to resort to anime. Books seem like a way to learn vocabulary for listening until you realise booke aren't going to teach you how words sound.
No.89553
Suppose it's probably just as hard either way
> 床 から 少し 浮かせた 上体 維持して
Had no idea what this was saying and it took me a while to transcribe this out for translation. Only understood sukoshi and kara.
now I have 2 nouns and 2 verbs somewhere in my memory.
床 (yuka) Floor
上体 (joutai) Upper body
浮かせた (ukaseta) Float/hover
維持して (ijishite) Maintain
So: Hold your upper body slightly above the floor.
No.89558
stop it, romaji make my eyes bleed
No.89559
>>89558reading is not important
No.89675
learning canji is stupid... why not learn vocabulary and use that to learn canji...
No.89677
>>89676what..... i'm saying learn the words in kanji instead of trying to memorize 2000 characters which have no meaning
No.89678
>>89674Also if you forget what a kanji you went over is you need to do this again.
No.89680
>>89677Because if you just memorize the romaji you're fucked when it comes to reading it...
No.89681
whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazassfcdat. I never mentioned romajopakjsdkj
No.89686
>>89675getting to immersion ASAP doesn't like that bad of an idea
No.89688
>>89686ASAP doesn't like that idea?
No.89697
still studying english
No.89840
My plan worked. I can understand one or two words from each line in anime. I'm caught up with your average sub watcher.
No.89841
Time to drop this fucked up language for French.
No.89842
>>89841>Frenchan even more fucked up language?
No.89853
>>89851...
that's why I kept putting it off
No.89854
TinTin and not much else
No.89857
>>89676Comprehensive input is the only way to acquire a language. Learning the kanji that's in vocabulary you encounter during immersing in native content is much more efficient than grinding kanji by onyomi and kunyomi and grade or jlpt level or whatever or dictionary mining shit
No.89858
Can someone else who uses Windows IME give me some pointers please, I've just dealt with this for years and I'm sick of it.
I want to watch some Elden Ring related content on Nicodouga, so I type えるでん in the search bar, and then will hit shift but it will not turn all into katakana. It turns into エル電 which is fucking dumb. This is just the most recent example in a lifetime of frustration tying to type ANYTHING in katakana. I would actually argue that katakana and not Kanji is actually the hardest part of the language, but that's another topic.
How can I get my IME to type just in katakana or convert to just katakana from phonetic Hiragana conversion?
No.89860
>>89858>How can I get my IME to type just in katakana Change it to half/full-width katakana by right clicking the little JPN IME thingy, if I'm remembering right.
No.89862
>>89858type えるでん then press f7 to convert. alt+capslock switches to katakana input
ctrl+capslock switches to hiragana input
alt+` turns off japanese input
No.89863
>>89858try F7 after typing in hiragana
No.89966
>>89962Hate that feeling.
No.89967
>>89966you hate learning?
No.89969
>>89968the feeling I got was a feeling of having learned things, so you're saying to me that you hate the feel of learning
No.89970
>>89962The figures in the background do look like they are dressed for a funeral.
No.89971
>>89970A nice and sunny 11:45PM funeral
No.89981
>>89962you should be using jp subs then
No.89982
>>89962>11:45PMI don't think you need to know Japanese to pick up on that...
No.89986
>>89982I ignored it until I heard gozen instead of gogo
No.90031
>>89969The feeling I get is a jarring feeling of realising that what was just spoken does not correspond with the subtitles.
No.90034
>>90031I think that it's neat that learning something has made you able to understand the story better
No.90095
>>90034That part of it is neat.
No.90862
Does anyone have any experience learning Arabic? I plan to take vacations/holidays in North Africa eventually
No.90868
>>90862I failed geography explain
No.90869
>>90862Good chance you could get by on English, Italian, Spanish or French depending on which country. Egypt tourism is very English. Morroco has Spanish enclaves. Italy thinks Algeria belongs to them. Nigeria has a lot of French commerce.
No.90873
>>90868almost all significant areas across North Africa speak Arabic, but with their own regional twist that is actually apparently pretty difficult for even Arabic speakers who are unaccustomed to that dialect to understand well.
No.90885
There are multiple kanji for naku(cry) but Japs chose 泣 instead of simple 泪.
No.90921
Does anyone know where can I find .dsl or .bgl files for JMDict? Need it for GoldenDict. The official website only seems to provide XML files.
No.91031
cleared 400 vocab(english association, characters audio/visual and sentenc audio/visual)
No.91035
>>90921https://simonwiles.net/projects/jmdict/Will this do?
>Stardict/Goldendict version of the JMDict Japanese-English Dictionary. No.91042
Been watching baseball in Japanese and outside of otaku media and learning material, some Japanese men have very, very unique voices. That being said, I'm surprised at how much I'm enjoying myself.
No.91048
>>91042Wasn't it in KF that in the real zoo scenes there were recordings juxtaposed where the viewer gets the impression, no matter how one Japanese person talks, there will be another Japanese person who will speak twice as fast or half as slow.
No.91056
do mature cards get demoted in Anki?
No.91074
>>91072Another great word is ちんちくりん.
No.91184
decided to start on the third part of the 2000 vocab deck and now everything is a two character kanji, part of a multipart sentence or homophone
No.91188
>>91168Reminds me of this piece from Chrono Trigger (warning: video contains spoilers for Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross). It's commonly referred to as "Wind Scene", a translation of 風の情景, but the title is actually 風の憧憬, translated as "Yearnings of the Wind" in the PlayStation and DS ports.
Many Japanese musicians label their cover/arrangement of it with the mismatched "風の憧憬 / Wind Scene". Even Square Enix did so for this cover album. But I think that's because "Wind Scene" has already become the more common name, not because it's the more accurate translation.
As for whether to read 憧憬 as しょうけい or どうけい, Mitsuda has this to say (quoting him in the video at around 4:27), assuming I'm making the words out correctly:
>実はですね、「どうけい」でも間違いではないですね>で「かぜのじょうけい」と読む方もいれば、「どうけい」と読む方もいらっしゃって、まあ、あの、公式では、「しょうけい」ということに、まあ、してはいるんですけど>「どうけい」でも大丈夫ですよ>「どうけい」と読んでも間違いではないですね No.91305
The Japanese should really reconsider their writing system. A fourth script only for onomatopoeia could be really useful.
No.91306
Until there are tables that can be made for each character, there are not enough systems
No.91622
>>91621well don't they believe that there's gods for everything? like towels and crossroads and stuff
No.91636
>>91621isn't it odd that the kanji for god is so simple 神 but the kanji for hair 髪 is so complex?
No.91640
>>91636>the kanji for hair 髪 is so complexCan't you see through it? 長 is the comb, 彡 the hair, 友 the hair tie.
No.91641
>>91621上 can also be read as kami, as in お上
might be related to the god one in some old way
No.91642
>>91641could also be related to hair, as in 上の毛
No.93181
>>93180Explain what? Apple pie?
No.93193
>>93192I think one of them is the chinese character for cat, the next is the kanji for cat, and then the last is the hiragana for cat
No.93194
>>93180>>93192First one has to be chinese kanji... I don't see it in my dictionary.
Second is neko, thrid is neko. Just kanji and hiragana
No.93196
>>93192While 豸 is a radical generally used for beasts, 犭is the squished version of 犬, "dog". 貓 is just the older form that's still used in China, which makes more sense because what the hell why are you writing cat with dog.
No.94994
>>94987Might start my cards again. Started looking at some doujin hgames and was reminded that mtl is still bad.
No.95073
>>95072I don't think "お作り" is read as "sashimi", at least not more than "お刺身"
No.95078
>>95073The '=' was supposed to indicate what's being translated from Japanese to an English word which comes from Japanese.
No.95079
>>95078oh, right, just me being retarded, sorry
No.99088
Made a cheat sheet for the pitch accent of verb conjugations, based on Dogen's phonetics course. Do recommend.
>>98291I have them set to a max interval of 8 months, and once good gets to that point I suspend them. Don't want them to pile up forever.
No.99958
Some time ago I finished my first RAW 'nime, Nazo no Kanojo X. Solid paraphiliac romcom, do recommend. Dialogue was overall pretty simple. HOWEVER, the subs on Kitsunekko had some really weird stuff going on, so here's an edited version in case anyone's interested, including the old subs for comparison:
https://files.catbox.moe/kp0cw6.7zWhat do you guys think? I wrote a changelog detailing all of the changes, though some of them may questionable, so I'd like to hear any opinions on it. If the new ones are alright, should I try to contact the Itazuraneko folks so they can add it to their mega or something?
(Oh, I recommend [RASETSU] since it has two different English subs, you can cross-reference between those and deepl's translations which is incredibly useful. BUT it has the dub baked in so watch out for that.)
No.99988
>>99278Nice. You may already know about this site, but I find it useful too:
https://www.gavo.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ojad/kouzokugo>>99958I think the weirdness stems from the fact that it's not a rip of professional closed captions made by Japanese people but rather a transcription done by non-native speakers. If I remember correctly, Kamigami is a Chinese sub group.
>Added a space between instances of particle な coming before quotation って, to differentiate from the conjugated verb なって.This strikes me as a bit weird to do. I don't think I normally see this.
And you missed several such instances. You also missed some places where the changes っ→つ and ッ→ツ should have been applied. Also, 手当て→手当 (even though either one seems to be acceptable).
>Changed ヶ into かヶ is also acceptable. It's read as か in ○ヶ月.
>Changed ー３ into -３ at 03:08.Nitpick, but half-width hyphen-minus with full-width Arabic numeral three looks a bit weird to me. Should be −３ or -3.
>Changed 思いた時 into 思った時 at 21:34. (Tsubaki does say おもいた, but that's a mistake on his part.)思えた. The Twitter quote bot @t_akirakun_bot agrees with me:
（そうなんだよな～。何を考えているのかわからなくて、いつも謎だらけの彼女だけど、だからこそ卜部の心に触れたように思えたとき、すっごく嬉しいんだよな～～～） 第十二話『謎の「ぎゅっ」』 #t_akirakun_botEven with your edits, some weirdness or mistakes remain. Here are just a few instances from episode 4:
>クラスは別だったしクラスが別だったし
>見える見れる. The bot agrees with me:
（卜部…おれの彼女…卜部の体操着姿が見れる～っ） 第四話「謎のガール・ミーツ・ガール」 #t_akirakun_bot>口にく わえて>わざとで しょうSpaces in weird places
>ばれてる>御免>駄目Not incorrect per se, but I think they would more commonly be written differently here. バレてる, ごめん・ゴメン, ダメ・だめ
I haven't watched the anime in full yet, but the OP is pretty catchy.
No.100699
Allllright, cheat sheet mk. 3 complete, simplified and corrected.
I'd missed the fact that nakadaka ichidan verbs had a slight difference, and I changed the wording on all the ones that were "Xnd to last" because it was kind of impractical, cumbersome.
>>99988>kouzokugoMan, that is veeeeeery thorough, wow. I'll be sticking to stuff that teaches general rules because I'm not that much into pitch accent but it's a very good resource to consult, thank you.
¥nazoHmmm, yeah, なって is definitely a change I made due to thinking as a beginner, it's best I undo it. ヶ I know is acceptable, but I also opted to change it for the same reason. Hmm. Kanji for ダメ and ごめん I kept for the opposite, though...
The sokuons are tricky, I had to go over them one by one multiple times to make sure I didn't overcorrect legit gemination, I'm honestly surprised I missed them anyways. Missed those spaces too. Gotta git gud, I guess.
>@t_akirakun_botWaaaaait, where's this guy taking his text from? I hadn't thought of looking for a bot, but then I did and also found about nazokanobot. They're both official, right? From 2012, alongside nazokano.
I'm feeling pretty stupid right now. But comparing each individual line with that of these accounts would be gruelling... I'm downloading
the raw BD to check for embedded stuff, it's looking like it'll take one or two weeks to complete. Will report back when it's done, I suppose.
in conclusion: aaaaaaaaa
No.100738
Something short and interesting that I'd like to point out, which I don't believe typical textbooks ever cover, is that in Japanese all morae that have an /i/ are palatalized. That is to say, you either articulate the sound at the same spot where you'd pronounce a /y/, or you add one between the consonant and the vowel:
ko so to no ho mo
ku su tsu nu fu mu
kyi ɕi tɕi ɲ̟i çi myi
Meaning that in the same way that the sound /si/ doesn't exist and instead there's only /shi/, the sound /ni/ doesn't exist either, there is only a /nyi/. In fact it's not even a /nyi/, it's /ɲ̟i/, another consonant that alongside /ɕ/ does not exist in English. This is hard to notice because /y/ and /i/ are so close to each other, but that's precisely why this occurs in the first place. They move their tongue towards the place where you'd pronounce a /i/ before it's actually pronounced, which is why the consonant gets moved as well.
I hate it, but that's how it is.
No.100783
Another thing I want to cover is a couple odd things that happen with /z/, for which I'll have to explain some phonetics concepts.
First, let's start with what a consonant is. There's two types of sounds everyone is familiar with, consonants and vowels. The difference between the two is that the latter is a sound you emit by simply letting air pass through your mouth while placing your tongue in different positions, while the former consists of blocking air in some way. A "stop" consonant is one which blocks air entirely, such as /p/, /k/, and /t/. They're also called "plosives", because you generate a sort of explosion when you let go. Another important type is "fricatives", sounds made through friction, by partially blocking air, like in /h/, /s/, or /f/. Airflow is only somewhat blocked, enough for it to make a notable sound.
Then there's affricates, made by combining a stop with a fricative. つ is an example of this, made up of a /t/ bound to a subsequent /s/, /t͡su/. Notice the link above the two. There's a pretty common affricate in English that you already know, /ch/. This one's made up of /t/ and /sh/, you'll notice that if you hold the sound it becomes the lone fricative /sh/. Now, just like the /ta/'s counterpart is /da/ and /su/'s is /zu/, you also have the pair of /tsu/ and /dzu/. What happened in Standard Japanese is that at one point all /z/ morae combined with /dz/, all the ones that you see written with /z/ actually stand for both a fricative and an affricate. The same can be seen with じ as it's also part of the /z/ group, /tshi/ and /dji/ merged as well, so that じ equals ぢ just like ず equals づ. Thus you get ずっと pronounced as /dzutto/, 自分 as /djibun/, and ぼっち・ざ・ろっく as Bocchi DZA rokku.
These morae can techincally be pronounced as affricates in any part of the word, though it's in the middle of one that it's mostly realized as just /z/. Typically, まず will be pronounced as /mazu/ in good part because it's simpler, but you're not gonna get any stares if you say /madzu/, natives themselves do it every so often. Usually, though, affricates are more or less obligatory in two positions: at the start of a word, and after ん. In these cases, ずっと can only ever be pronounced as /dzutto/, never as /zutto/. 感じ must always be /kandji/. Something identical happens in English, where "June" is pronounced not as /juun/ but /djuun/, they're also affricates at the start of a word. However, this alternation isn't something either group of native speakers notice, because even though they're two different sounds, they're grouped into the same phoneme.
However, gairago breaks the rules, like it does all the time. Quoting from Labrune:
>In a number of very recent loans, a realization as [dɯ] distinct from that of [zɯ] is appearing, as illustrated in the already cited example duu itto yuaserufu [dɯ:ittojɯaˡseɾɯϕɯ] {do it yourself}.
No.100893
BD has no subs..... I give up..........
No.100928
>>100916Most monosyllabic on'yomi readings with /o/ are long, save for a very small minority of short ones like 女, 書, 所, and 路. Kun'yomi, on the other hand, practically doesn't have any long /o/, off the top of my head it's only the ones that used to be /owo/ (no, seriously) but had their /w/ dropped: 大, 多い, 覆う, 氷, (which are written with おお instead of おう to reflect this) or those other few that underwent a merger like 今日 (kefu->kyou).
No.100929
Oh, another good tip about readings is that on'yomi cannot be longer than two morae. You can have せい and せつ, but never せいつ. That last one is too long.
No.100931
>>100916Can't say i understand the issue... but i can't say i know goot much about pronunciation
No.101015
Having used Anki for a good 2-3 years, I have (about a year ago) come to a realization about the effectiveness of Anki for remembering kanji.
As you go on using Anki, you're quite clearly remembering all the hundreds, if not thousands of kanji vocabulary cards you're going through everyday. However, I personally have found it somewhat difficult to read/write them in my everyday life, for example when playing VNs in Japanese.
I believe this is because all the vocabulary/kanji you learn with Anki are stored in your brain under the context of Anki; tagged as "anki" in the kanjibooru of your brain, if you will. Meaning that, when you see a card, your brain has a precise sub-database of kanji to look through i.e. the set of kanji tagged as "anki". On the other hand, when you encounter a kanji outside the context of Anki, your brain has to look through a much more broader database of kanji, where the entries can range from a random kanji you saw on a billboard in the background of a manga panel to a specific kanji card in an Anki deck. Therefore, increasing the chances of you drawing a blank.
Now, I know Anki is not the end all be all of remembering written Japanese, and that it's my fault for dedicating time to Anki instead of practical Japanese usage, but still an interesting experience.
No.101018
>>101015There does exist some research to back this up, if I remember correctly.
Spaced repetition is based on making strong links between a specific stimulus and the thing you want to recall, you see A, you think of B. Simple as.
But the thing is that all stimuli take place _within a certain environment_, and so one can very easily fall into the trap of the trap of putting absolutely everything into Anki, only to later find out it doesn't work quite as well as expected, because even though months may pass and you'll still be able to recognize _the card_, that won't mean you'll be able to recognize the _word itself_ out in the wild. This is important, because the time spent setting up cards and reviewing them is non-trivial, so you gotta make sure to make good use of it by being in contact with real spoken Japanese as well. (It's also not going to teach you to write, just to recognize.)
Fully agree with the last part. I've used WaniKani to great effect (for which there is RIGHT NOW a big lifetime sub discount (though the platform is borderline unusable without addons and supplements)), but even if it's absolutely amazing at helping you remember stuff, yeah, it still won't make you the end-all be-all kanji master you need to be to achieve truly fluent reading.
Posting relevant Dolly because even though I rarely entirely agree with her, she makes some good points.
No.101680
japaneseasmr.com
No.101681
also there's anime radio shows. there was one for bocchi
No.101685
>>101679Just watch anime, it's that simple.
No.101686
>>101685I think anime sucks!
No.101687
>>101685But kiddy anime, like doraemon
No.101970
Find it funny that the kanji for "fondle"/"grab", 揉む, is a combination of the kanji for hand, 手, and the kanji for soft, 柔(らかい).
No.101984
>>101970I've got one family I really like:
~ 帚, broom
箒, broom+bamboo= also a broom (happens a lot)
掃, broom+hand= sweep, brush
婦, broom+woman= wife
There's 中 too:
~ 中, middle/inside
仲, middle+person= relationship
沖, middle+water= open sea
忠, middle+heart= loyalty
And, well, other favorites of mine are 長, 義, 出, and 士 (志/寺).
Except for 帚, they don't just contribute to semantics, they also have pretty consistent on'yomi readings.
Shoutout to 丂 for being a massive underdog, regular dictionaries will all tell you it's 勹 because they hate this lil' guy. The Shuowen had it right, I tell ya. Dictionaries today using Kangxi's 214 don't even include the zodiac signs, it's ridiculous.
No.102000
すもももももももみたい！李も桃も揉みたい！
No.102487
In case anyone is in the same situation as >>>/jp/47750 and would like to learn about a convenient little tool for instantaneous rune lookup, allow me to introduce you to Yomichan:
https://foosoft.net/projects/yomichan/It works like this: you install the addon, you upload a dictionary through its settings, then just mouse over some scribbles while pressing shift or control and BAM there's your instant dictionary right there. Incredible stuff.
These are the dictionaries I have saved:
https://files.catbox.moe/3379ya.zipIt's a tweaked version of this bigger collection:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1TRylrqtoYi2hW9dAjci5cugNzde_WRTMMinus some broken things, the RU/ZH dicts, and the bigger monolingual files so I could make it fit into catbox, while adding a couple like kireicake which is the same as the JMdict but better. Personally, these are the ones I regularly use:
https://files.catbox.moe/jqp9dr.7zSometimes I check the Meikyou and Daijirin as well, but the Oubun and Shinmeikai do a pretty damn job at covering things in general. The former has a short intro at the top of complex entries to give an idea of the word's meaning in general and often features sections where it explains nuanced differences between this and that word/kanji, while the Shinmeikai tends to be quite short with zero examples but very interesting explanations. Don't be afraid to use deepl for MTL, I do it fairly often and it works pretty well, though you do need to double check sometimes.
Something to keep in mind is that Japanese dictionaries give you a list of
definitions, while English ones have a list of
synonyms. A great example is that of 生み出す, for which kireicake says:
>to create, to bring forth, to produce, to invent, to think up and bring into being, to give birth to, to bearWhile the Shinmeikai says:
>(一)生む。>(二)新しく作り出す。First one is as simple as can be. But the second, that one in particular I really like, it's extremely concise. Covers the entirety of kirei's list with just two words.
So yeah, it's an excellent tool and I love it. It's even got Anki integration. Pic unrelated.
No.102494
>>101018>the time spent setting up cards <...> is non-trivialStyling them to your taste might take a bit of time but adding them to a deck is as simple as a couple clicks as long as you have the text in your browser and yomichan. You can get it there from images/games too, with kanjitomo and hooker things for vns.
That said I don't add anything other than the word itself, reading in kana and definitions. J>E is whatever anyway, the point is to get to J>J. Same as it was with english for me.
Picking up nihongo for the umpteenth time, maybe this time I'll actually stick with it.
No.107027
>>107026I'm not an expert in seals, but I understand it to be on a case by case basis. Here, it's first left to right, then top to bottom, the word is うぐいす. But in
>>>/win/2142, it's top to bottom, right to left, even the smaller seal at the end reads 桜乃そら. But I believe it's overwhelmingly one of these two, same as regular writing.
No.108691
ask chatgpt for mnemonics
No.108692
DO NOT ask ChatGPT for advice on academic topics, it recently gave me a list of English-language books on Catalonia that didn't exist
No.108694
>>108692took u on a rusecruise
No.108717
The Japanese struggling to write english on Pixiv doesnt give me confidence
No.108935
You know all those weird characters that are the same as a completely different one, except they have an extra stroke? That stroke surprisingly does have a meaning, and it's basically to say that it's more than the base, there's an increment somehow. For example:
大 - a front-facing BIG stickman
太 - a dude that's more than big, a FATTIE
皿 - a VASE/PLATE
血 - a vase now full of BLOOD, 'cause sacrificial stuff
水 - a river and its WATER
永 - more than a river, an unending, ETERNAL stream
The common counter-examples to this are 氷 (which is 冰 compressed), 犬 (a picture of a dog that got simplified into oblivion), and the unholy trinity of 王/玉/主. What happened to those three was this:
- 王's bottom was originally curved, possibly related to an axehead, but ultimately got flattened
- 玉 is actually the original 王, maybe a string of jadestones (for both form and meaning see 玨), that later got extra strokes added to differentiate it from 王
- 主 used to be just a torch, became more elaborate but was later flattened as well, top stroke is what remains of its fire
See pic for a simplified progression of their looks, top being the oldest.
This little thing is by no means reliable, but still more useful than it may seem at first.
No.108936
>>108692yeah it does that whenever you ask for references. The longer your reply chain runs the more distorted it's sense of information gets.
I was asking it some software security questions went back and forth between two conflicting ideas. Then when asked for sources it randomly generated a URL that never existed.
No.110364
Haven't touched Anki or books in like a year but was able to mostly read smoothly through a CG set using kanji I learned from all the eromanga I read and OCR. So this is true progress...
No.110377
whatever it is you're learning the language for is what you should do
anki is just a supplement and books are here to let you start
No.111855
>>111850I'm not a 5-year-old any more...
No.112466
Stuff like 一寸した and 適当 is so annoying. Words with multiple meanings that are the exact opposite of each other and it's not always clear which one being used, I must be misunderstanding something because I can't see how this is a thing.
No.112467
>>111850You talk like a dumbass doing this
No.112480
>>112466Context, context, context.
>一寸したPlease don't do this.
No.112483
My japanese has gotten to the point where I no longer get ignored on jim2ch, only the live boards though, I do not post on the slow boards because its a lot more noticeable than on a cancer board on threads about a lady from the NHK
There was a NEET general that I used to lurk but it became too sad
No.112485
>>112483>There was a NEET general that I used to lurk but it became too sadwhat happened
No.112486
Also are the ネトウヨ the same ones on the fast boards making ERP baity posts or are those actual teenagers
>>112485Both depression and either legal issues or gainful employment, a group in the thread hatched a plan to fake work histories/education and just eventually stopped posting
No.112487
>>112486So the only posters left were sadsacks with spiraling addictions and mental health
No.112489
>>112486Patriotic anime ERP? Like, falseflagging or how?
No.112490
>>112489No I wasnt saying the ERP posts were political, I'm just suspicious of them appearing on boards heavily frequented by jpn poltards
No.112491
>>112490Probably isnt though, they rage about kpop hornyposting
No.112492
>>112490Then that might just be trolling.
No.112493
isnt it just like when people say kimo stuff here
No.112494
Would キモい be a proper response then
No.112577
turns out itazuraneko is kill
here's the new site
https://djtguide.github.io/index.html No.112603
>>112602you will NEVER break my sage spirit
No.112605
>>112603i can bump your sages but you cant sage my bumps
No.112610
>>112577Is that guide still the best one?
No.112614
>>112610never really followed it myself, so dunno
but it's got a lotta links and stuff just without copyrighted material now
No.113369
https://asmrhentai.netASMR with AI translated subtitle if you want
No.113370
>>113369Cool. Are these DLSite AI subs?
No.113385
>>113369That's cool, but I don't know if I'll use it. Subtitle generation for movies, tv and anime would be very nice.
No.113652
>>113650not sure what you mean exactly but it's a common word that can mean both sexual and regular excitement
No.113653
>>113652i thought he meant it was a pain in the ass to write it
No.113659
Help me! I used to study Japanese a few years ago (I didn't get very far) but now I got the idea of studying either Mandarin Chinese or Korean instead. Does anybody know either of these languages? I want to learn some Asian language but I was wondering if Mandarin Chinese or Korean would be easier (I'm lazy). Does Korean have pitch accent or tone differences that actually matters when you are pronouncing words? I mean, does the meaning get changed if you can't pronounce it correctly (like it does in Chinese)?
>>71550Directly translating from English to any other language doesn't make sense because your goal is to learn how to think in your target language, I think.
>>112467Yeah, the language used in anime is not the same as your regular everyday Japanese. If I recall correctly, even using "desuyo" carelessly can make you sound a bit rude (but note that I haven't studied Japanese in years). I think desuyo can make it sound like you are forcing your opinion on others (the opposite of how "desune" is often used) desuyo can often also mean "... , you know?", while in anime it's often used to signify the character's enthusiasm or excitement. Another example: personal pronouns (like "omae" or "anata") are used more frequently in anime than in real Japanese. You are supposed to avoid using them when talking to people who you don't know well, and you must be careful when choosing the pronoun you use (to not sound rude).
No.113660
>>113659In general, I keep hearing Mandarin is syntactically the easier of the three to learn for an English speaker while Korean is seemingly more inflected than Jap, all of them have mostly decent consonants, some ehhh vowels, and solid syllable structure, KR has pitch accent just like Jap (though the latter has a low "cognitive load," don't know how important it is in the former), KR has a very simple and easy writing system while Mandarin's is notoriously complicated and the Japanese script is by far one of the worst to ever exist, and finally Korean has a level of grammatical politeness that makes Japanese look like child's play, it seems Mandarin has eased up on that stuff because of gommunism :---DDD.
All in all, don't learn Korean, and don't learn the other two if you don't feel like spending years grinding away at doodles.
No.113661
>>113659You should pick the language of the culture you're interested in. I don't think there's any point to learning Korean if you hate k-pop and k-dramas, for example. Learning any language takes effort, especially an East Asian language.
Anyway, I considered learning korean once since go is much larger there than in Japan. My impression was that the phonology was quite complex compared to Japanese. If you're a native English speaker you can already make most basic sounds in Japanese. Korean has aspirated/unaspirated consonants, consonant tensing, and some unusual vowels, so learning to make correct sounds at all is harder. It's easier than Chinese, though, since you don't have to learn tones on top of that. Korean only has pitch accent, like Japanese.
I also found hangul difficult and unintuitive, but obviously still better than learning thousands of kanji.
No.113664
>>113661Japanese is actually rather complex if you're interested in pronouncing it correctly. All the -i/ゃ/ょ/ゅ consonants aren't actually a cluster with /y/ but are described as having secondary articulation, it's got six vowels not five, /N/ wavers between five different nasal stops which includes the jank-ass uvular, a nasalized velar approximant (like Korean's but worse), or any nasalized vowel with seemingly no fixed place of articulation, and devoicing has far more to it than just deleting the vowel, or else kiku [kʲi̥kɯ̟ᵝ] would be unpronounceable. It's nowhere near as simple as kana or romaji would have you believe. Apiration is fairly easy compared to all of this.
>>113662>800 different symbolsMore like three thousand. But still, it's not just a matter of writing.
No.113670
>>113664Yeah, after rereading my post, I realise that I didn't express myself very well. What I was trying to say is that basic, beginner pronunciation is easier in Japanese compared to Korean for an English speaker because Korean has more unfamiliar sounds, not that Korean phonology overall is more complicated than Japanese. Most of the things you mentioned won't show up in a beginner book, but tensing/aspiration are unavoidable in even basic material. Of course, native pronunciation in any language is complex and requires training/technical knowledge to emulate well.
No.113687
>>113664The thing is that Japanese is easy to hear. Barring a few exceptions (鼻濁音, 直音化 etc.), even a beginner/intermediate learner should be able to look up words from their pronunciation without much difficulty.
>it's got six vowels not fiveCare to elaborate?
No.113688
>>113659I have been studying Mandarin. Its not as hard as people hype up but it still can be a pain in the ass, particularly if you want to learn traditional sets but that can make learning older sets a little easier.
Why are you even interested in learning Korean or Mandarin?
No.113691
>>113661>You should pick the language of the culture you're interested in.Good point, I think I have been approaching this issue from entirely wrong angle.
>>113688>Why are you even interested in learning Korean or Mandarin?Actually, now that I have thought about it more, I think the only reasons why I wanted to learn Japanese was anime, manga and classical literature (mainly related to philosophy and religion). I'm also a bit interested in the game of go but I honestly have no idea where to start.
The only reason for starting to learn Korean instead, would be that Korean might be easier in certain ways but I don't think that I would have many things that would keep me motivated me, since I'm not into K-pop or K-dramas. Mandarin Chinese does have a lot of classical literature, too. But I don't know if there would be enough other things that would keep me motivated (so I wouldn't stop studying, again). Maybe I will just visit my local library and borrow introductory textbooks on Mandarin Chinese and Korean? I don't know if I will be ever able to become good enough to understand classical literature in any of these languages but I think I will try it again, anyway.
No.113798
>>113687>>113664>beginner pronunciation is easier>easy to hearYeah, I can agree with that, I'm not trying to be a contrarian here. It's that I can speak English with half or even a third of its vowels and still be easily understood, so ease as a metric is debatable.
>Care to elaborate?I don't mean phonemes, the logical units (of which there are five, six, or ten depending on who you ask) but
phones, the sounds in and of themselves, written inside brackets.
If you look at pic, a chart of the "goodness rating" of how well a vowel is pronounced, you'll see that while most of them are fairly localized, /u/ has a much bigger range than the others and manages to reach the middle of the mouth. That's because it has two allophones: the "standard" [ɯ̟] that is a fair bit more forwards than the cardinal [u], and central [ɨ]. The latter appears after some sounds articulated in the front of your mouth, like /t/, /s/ and /z/, so す is [sɨ], つ [t͡sɨ], and ず is [d͡zɨ]. But that's not all, it also appears after any 拗音: きゅ = [kʲɨ], しゅ = [ɕɨ], びゅ = [bʲɨ], and so on and so forth with じゅ, ちゅ, ぎゅ, etc. I understand it's even debated whether that's the case in ぬ as well. This makes it a really common sound, all in all.
I believe its proximity to /i/, especially when relaxed, and the fact that it and /u/ are devoiced in the same environments are major contributing factors to 直音化.
(You can also see how /e/ is right in the middle of /a, i/, which is why it's such a common way to slur it.)
>>113789That's a time-tested recipe for burnout. I remember when I did WaniKani because it was simpler than Anki from scratch, and boy after a year it made me want to die. Anki lets you build an exponentially bigger backlog than WK, so really watch out for that, and writing everything down is a major time consumer.
No.113854
Oh, and the centralized [ɨ] (here written as [ï]) is also the one of the main culprits behind yotsugana, the merging between /u/ and /i/ in these contexts:
>It is assumed that historically /di/ vs. /zi/ were pronounced respectively as [di] vs. [ʒi], and /du/ vs. /zu/ were as [du] vs. [zu]. Such a distinction is still kept in only some areas in Kochi, well known as “yotsugana dialects” [dialects with four different ways of pronounciation for four kana letters]>In contrast, the North of Tohoku areas neutralize such four forms into [dzï] ([ï] = centralized [i]), which is characterized as “hitotsugana dialects” [dialects with only one way of pronunciation for four kana letters] or “dzii dzii dialects”. This dialect also neutralizes /ti/ and /tu/ into [tsï], which turns up as [dzï] intervocalically.>Thus, /tizi/ 知事 ‘governor’ and /tizu/ 地図 ‘map’ are both realized as [tʃiⁿdzï], and /titi/ 乳 ‘milk’ and /tuti/ 土 ‘soil’ are both [tsïdzï]From a little note in this book:
https://library.lol/main/0DDE136A02945D3B5CC40AAEAFAE26F4 No.113869
>>113867wow, their kanji breakdown is very different from the one I experienced way back when.
No.113870
>>113869hmm, what was it like?
No.113872
>>>/jp/61029
>Note: in Jap, all nouns require a measure word, as in […] 2匹の猫
Not always, it seems. Here are some article titles from Japanese Wikipedia.
¥ 犬と私の10の約束
¥ 10の秘密
¥ 13の理由 (テレビドラマ)
¥ 17のポーランドの歌
¥ 二十の質問
Note: for the first two titles, the reading of "10" is given as "じゅう", not "とお".
No.113899
>>113872Oh, yeah, that.
Everyone agrees that つ and 個 (个 in Chinese) serve as generic counters, that the first one only goes up to 9, and that after 10 you only use the latter or nothing at all. But I don't know
why exactly the generic classifier becomes optional, I don't think that happens in Chinese. My intuition tells me it's just a quirk of people favoring the kun'yomi and being unable to match it with on'yomi. Even the flippin' Handbook of Quantifiers in Natural Language seems to gloss over it.
As for what's happening here, 二十 is still acting as a noun, "question(s) of twenty," which is different from English numbers, where they act as determiners and can directly modify other words: "twenty questions." (I got the adjective part wrong, it's a different class.) Then again, basically everything you could call a determiner behaves like a noun. It's just a Jap thing.
No clue why it's read as じゅう, though.
No.114078
What's /qa/'s preferred method of setting up a mining deck with yomichan?
No.114079
>>114078ankiconnect to make a card in one click, kanji on the front and reading + translation on the back
No.114153
how are you supposed to differentiate 触れる, 触る, and 感触
No.114156
>>114153It's different kinds of feelings. At their basic levels 触れる I believe is the most general one, for experiencing things in general, while 触る is defined as more narrowly あるものに手などを触れる, or あるものが体に触れる. It's more commonly used for touching stuff, like when Ui-mama sings 「触ったら逮捕！」. And then 感触 is defined as 手触り/肌触り, but also 雰囲気として感じとれること.
>>114154Die. (Even though it's been deleted already.)
No.114978
A small and often overlooked aspect of loanword adoption is how certain words which you'd expect to turn out as /ka, ga/ actually get palatalized into /kya, gya/, even when the original doesn't have that. You know the ones:
Gal → ギャル
Catch → キャッチ
Camp → キャンプ
Gap → ギャップ
These are specifically words that contain the vowel /æ/, which as per English's rules can only appear as a monophthong in a closed syllable. Their transcription is /ɡæl/, /kæt͡ʃ/, /kæmp/, and /ɡæp/ respectively. It's not restricted to monosyllabic words, though:
Gallery /ˈɡæl.əɹ.i/ → ギャラリー
Carol /ˈkær.l/ → キャロル
Catherine /ˈkæθ.(ə).rɪn/ → キャサリン
You can see this doesn't occur with a CVV cluster, since /æ/ cannot appear in a diphthong:
Guide /gaɪd/ → ガイド
Counter /ˈkaʊn.tə/ → カウンター
Now, why does this happen? Here's one explanation:
>The English low front vowel [æ] is realized as [ya] if it follows a velar stop [k] or [g]. This is because the frontness of [æ] is most readily interpreted as palatalization of the preceding consonant, particularly when it is a back consonant, i.e., velar. (Lovins 1975).Basically, Japanese /a/ is central [ä], it sits in the middle, but English /æ/ lies more towards the front (closer to /e/ or /i/, see the vowel chart) and combined with /k, g/ (which are the consonants found at the backmost part of the mouth) it makes the consonants move towards the front as well, in this case becoming palatalized.
This phenomenon is specific to English loans, words from other sources such as French カロリー, Portuguese カルタ, or Dutch/German カテーテル are all always unpalatalized. Timeframe matters too, there are several old words where you actually end up with an /e/ instead, from the period of 1850-1890. Back in the day, キャビン used to be ケビン, キャビネット was ケビネット, and キャッチャー was ケッチャー. Later re-borrowings can end up taking on /kya/, like canvas, which you can find both as キャンバス and カンバス, but the former has about thirty times more hits on Google. It's even more pronounced for キャピタル vs カピタル. There's one that got borrowed THRICE, character: first as カラクテル circa 1850, then ケラクター in the 1870s, and finally キャラクター past 1890.
Some old words that have survived in plain form are カンガルー, カレンダー, カタログ, some names like Kansas' カンザス/剛色斯, and カテゴリー, カメラ, ガソリン (French catégorie, German Kategorie/Kamera/Gasolin). Crawford essentially argues this is because their link to older sources remained in one way or another, even as the Japanese began to take more and more words from English, and so people stuck to what was already there, the older cognate.
Finally, I'd like to add that there's another vowel that's adapted as /a/ without palatalization, and that's the central /ʌ/:
Cut /kʌt/ → カット
Curry /ˈkʌɹ.i/ → カレー
Couple /ˈkʌp.l/ → カップル
Cunning /ˈkʌn.ɪŋ/ → カンニング
So, we can distinguish between cup /kʌp/ → カップ and cap /kæp/ → キャプ.
As a side note, if the separate /i/ and /ɪŋ/ seem weird to you, that's because English has a tendency to make open syllables into closed ones. Remember how the italian segue /ˈsɛ.ɡwe/ was split into /ˈsɛɡ.weɪ/. APPARENTLY, even /a.ni.me/ is warped into /ˈæn.ɪ.meɪ/, or /ˈæn.ə.meɪ/ if you're a burger with the weak vowel merger. I seriously hope you guys don't do this.
IN CONCLUSION
If you're dealing with an English loanword from recent times that starts with /kæC/ or /gæC/, then it's gonna be adapted as /kya, gya/. This does not apply to words from other languages, very old loans, or those that have /ʌ/, which will remain plain. That is all.
Main explanation from here, Crawford's dissertation, pages 56 through 71:
https://ecommons.cornell.edu/bitstream/1813/13947/1/Crawford,%20Clifford.pdfChart and quotation from here:
https://langsci.wiscweb.wisc.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/1012/2019/05/kaneko.pdfhttps://www.nagoya-bunri.ac.jp/wp/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/kiyo15-29-40.pdf No.115969
>>113385>>>/jp/62954In case Anonymous has missed my posting on /secret/ (>>>/secret/22220) I figured I should probably post about it here:
You can generate your own subtitles using OpenAI's Whisper and it's really quite good. I've been using it in conjunction with this project (
https://github.com/m1guelpf/auto-subtitle) which allows me to automatically generate subtitles.
I tried it out recently using Otaku no Video, and I think it did an exceptional job. You can also use Whisper for translation which is the main reason I've been using it and the English subtitles it generated were passable. Often quite literal with poor flow, but over all quite good. About on the level of what you might expect Google Translate to do, but you can run it on your own PC. That said, I've been using the Large model, and I have a 4090, so my ease of generating these subtitles, and the quality at which they are created may not be achievable for people with more modest hardware. Whisper does have much smaller, more resource-conscious models (There's Tiny, Base, Small, Medium, and Large). The maximum memory usage is only 4.7GB so most people with recent-ish GPUs should be able to use it, it'll just be slower. You can technically run it on the CPU too, but I would really recommend using the GPU since it's a lot faster.
I've uploaded Otaku no Video and the subtitles in archive to MEGA here:
https://mega.nz/file/b4xBBaxI#SScJsvipyxLzmZlvs3nnChDs5XJrqCamTInikncHOrEFrom what I can tell from a few minutes watching, the Japanese subtitles seem spot on.
I've created a batch script to go through and create subtitles for every file in a folder. This is for transcription only. If you want it to translate to English, you would change "transcribe" to "translate". Of course, it works with other languages too, but you'll have to interrogate the commandline flags to learn more.
@ECHO OFF
SETLOCAL
for %%i in (*) do auto_subtitle "%%i" -o subtitles/ --model large --srt_only True --verbose True --task transcribe --language ja
echo.
echo.
echo All Done^!
pause No.115991
>>115969Hmmm, interesting.
I checked kitsunekko for Dokuro-chan subs the other day and wrote them off after seeing {AI-WHISPER-GENERATED} in the title, but if the transcription is genuinely good then I'll try them with Darker than Black. That one's spent six years sitting there with half of its episodes missing. Thanks for posting this.
>>115970Never heard of polysynthetic?
No.115993
>>115991Yes, but most are just symbolic identity markers these days more than languages now, with the exception of perhaps Welsh as in the north and west of the country, 50% or more use the language every day.
No.115995
>>115969That's really cool and a good use for this AI stuff, but yeah a 4090 is extreme. Subtitles isn't something you need 'live', though, so it would depend on how much is loaded into VRAM. Did you monitor the VRAM usage at all?
I wonder if there's been an improvement in OCR since I tried to play the Utawarerumono Nosuri spinoff thing, but I assume there hasn't been.
No.115997
>>115995Got some numbers for each model, but my initial impressions from checking up on the output as it's in progress are that Tiny seemed basically unusable, Base was okay, Small good, Medium better, and Large near-perfect. As you would expect pretty much. The other thing I found interesting was that there was no difference in VRAM usage between transcription and translation, but time taken was very variable. Also, it seems the figures for Whisper,
at least from Whisper.cpp, were off pretty widely. That, or maybe it utilizes more VRAM if available? I'm not sure. But either way, my maximum VRAM usage was ~11GB, NOT 4.7GB like Whisper.cpp claims.
Tiny:
Transcribe:
VRAM: 1795MB
Total Time: 4 minutes 3 seconds
Second-per-Minute: 2.5 seconds
Translate:
VRAM: 1804MB
Time: 6 minutes
Second-per-Minute: 3.7 seconds
Base:
Transcribe:
VRAM: 3223MB
Time: 5 minutes 38 seconds
Second-per-Minute: 3.5 seconds
Translate:
VRAM: 3192MB
Time: 3 minutes 47 seconds
Second-per-Minute: 2.3 seconds
Small:
Transcribe:
VRAM: 3157MB
Time: 4 minutes 26 seconds
Second-per-Minute: 2.7 seconds
Translate:
VRAM: 3172MB
Time: 4 minutes 42 seconds
Second-per-Minute: 2.9 seconds
Medium:
Transcribe:
VRAM: 6177MB
Time: 9 minutes 15 seconds
Second-per-Minute: 5.7 seconds
Translate:
VRAM: 6153MB
Time: N/A (Forgot to write the end time. Whoops)
Second-per-Minute: N/A
Large:
Transcribe:
VRAM: 11251MB
Time: 11 minutes 52 seconds
Second-per-Minute: 7.37
Translate:
VRAM: 11242MB
Time: 8 minutes 48 seconds
Second-per-Minute: 5.4 seconds
No.116038
>>116036All symmetrical kanji are pretty to look at, words consisting of multiple symmetrical kanji are especially great like 未来、田舎、中出、米日、富士山.
No.116039
i like the kanji for "uneven" (i forget how it's read, i just know it looks like two tetris blocks)
No.116040
凸凹
No.116042
>>116040yeah, that's the one! love that one.
No.116046
凸◕凹◕凸
No.116432
>>116425The archives are so cute! I wish they got a full pc/console game instead of mobage
No.116650
https://www.jlect.com/entry/1202/zu/older japanese has some unique constructions you never really see...
No.116651
>>116650But this is extremely common in modern Japanese.
No.116652
>>116651well then i'm being tricked by the site since it says
>More common in older texts No.116655
>>81105>>81129I was playing ファイアーエムブレム暁の女神 and noticed that it also glosses the unique class name 「勇者」 as 「ブレイブ」. The class description also describes Ike as an 「英雄」 with reference to his past accomplishments that made him famous.
The localization opted for "hero" for both words (well, technically "Hero" and "hero", but, ignoring case, they're the same).
>>116651Reminds me of this 2020 blog post I came across talking about how in recent times 「せずに」 has been starting to overtake 「しないで」
https://note.com/kyone/n/naecace98c211But I think 「せず。」 at the end of a sentence is still less common than 「しない。」 in modern Japanese.
No.116788
What's the fastest way to learn hiragana? is it possible to learn them all in a week?
No.116791
>>116788There are some flash thingies you can use to brute force the hell out of them in way less than time than you would with flashcards.
This is the one I used a couple years ago, and surprisingly archive.org comes with Ruffle integrated:
https://archive.org/details/kana-warrior_flash No.118865
>>116792Kana is a huge step towards just recognizing basic stuff, and it's pretty easy to do. Good job Anonymous, you're on the right track!
Also, when it comes to the serious effort I've been putting in since September, I'm glad to report that I have yet to get burnt out, been doing my reps every single day so far and reading more stuff raw. Really feels like I'm making progress and being able to freely read LO whenever and not needing to wait for TLs is a godsend.
No.120320
>>120318It works for me with portuguese but really its more immersion and it needs to be tertiary at best, but apparently anime characters talk like dweebs so it might not be the best option
No.120327
>>120320>>120318watching with subs works in any language up to a point. Anyone can pick up basic vocab watching eng subbed anime like the video said but no one will pick up words like ¨molecule-structure¨ in dr stone on their first watch, not even using the meme subs he made, unless maybe, if they know the words that make up the compound (分子,構造). the obvious next step is to learn basic grammar and watch it with jp subs to not be illiterate. The video assumes that people learning still don't know how much Japanese and English grammar differ from each other. Eng subs in any language are good to get your feet wet
>anime characters talk like dweebsbeaten horse, you can still learn vocab and notice when they do that to avoid it. Watching raw youtubers and streamers in whatever language you want to learn is the most optimal method to learn ¨natural¨ or ¨native¨ speak (this is why reality shows are popular among language learners, specifically international versions/variations of big brother). Of course, it also depends if it's a vtuber or whatever. Auto generated jp youtube subtitles are surprisingly accurate excluding the occasional errors when they are speaking too fast. I say it's the best method (imho) because the amount of easily available native content is massive and anyone can find someone they can enjoy watching if they look for them.
>>100893hate this too
No.120345
>>120327Worst part of fish scaling is that they go everywhere
No.120346
>>120320Anime characters don't talk like dweebs, it's regular Japanese people that do.
No.121491
How do Japanese people understand each other properly in conversations with so many words sounding the same but having different meanings? This is probably a good example, "nikui/iiniku" means both "hateful" and "hard/difficult":
https://www.romajidesu.com/dictionary/meaning-of-iiniku.html The entire exchange here is based on a popular saying: "excessive tenderness switches to hundredfold hatred" and then Yotsugi misunderstands the second "iiniku" said by Yozuru as "hateful" when she meant "hard" instead.
It's not like this doesn't exist in English and other languages but I wonder if it's particularly bad in the case of Japanese.
No.121498
>>121491Oh, no, those aren't homophones. They're using the same root word all the time.
Nikui by itself is for a thing that inspires hate, -nikui as a verb suffix is something you hate doing. See the adjective 醜い for a reflection of both, from 見にくい. What Yotsugi is doing here is altering the saying「可愛さ余って憎さ百倍」, which has the word niku-sa (憎さ) that is a noun derived from the adjective, the subs are inaccurate/misleading because the second time its annotation says <(ii-nikui)> she's actually saying ii-nikusa, adding an 言い to the middle of the phrase to change the word and overall meaning. 憎たらしい is another separate word they use from the same root. They're not homophones, it's a range of meanings being used in wordplay while placed in distinct situations, comparable to the difference between between "I have a pencil" and "I have to go." Very normal thing all in all and it seems to me in this case there's not much confusion at play, just silliness. Yozuru earlier points out she's doing it on purpose.
No.121502
>>121498I see. I hear the "ii-nikusa" now. Then she says "nikui" by itself meaning "hate" and then Yozuru follows with "ii-nikui" explaining that she meant as in hard/difficult to do and not hatred. Just an issue of the subs not making this clear.
You could be a teacher with how good you are at explaining it.
No.121507
>>121502I don't think that's quite it.
¥ でも言いにくいことも、ちゃんと言っていかなきゃならないよねWhen someone says something like this, they're typically referring to things that ought to be said but are hard to say because of the subject matter or the content of the message or uncertainty about the reaction it would provoke, not because the message is hard to pronounce. But Yotsugi twists it here to mean that things that are merely hard to pronounce are also imperative to say.
¥ いや、そういう「言いにくい」ちゃうやろ。純粋な言いにくいやろThat's what Yozuru's tsukkomi here is about. Yotsugi's utterance is hard to say not because it's sensitive or offensive or anything but because it's hard to pronounce.
Or at least that's how I understood it.
>>121491>I wonder if it's particularly bad in the case of Japanese.It can get particularly bad in the case of kango (words constructed from Chinese morphemes). Try looking up こうしょう (koushou) for example. I imagine the meaning would often be clear from context, but if one needs to disambiguate one might specify the Chinese morphemes by their corresponding kanji by referring to some other words that use them (e.g. "koushou" where the "kou" is the morpheme whose kanji is the same as the one for "kuchi" and the "shou" is the morpheme whose kanji is used to write "uketamawaru": 口承). Another thing one might do is replace a Chinese morpheme with a native Japanese morpheme (or an on'yomi with a kun'yomi) like saying "bakegaku" for 化学 (chemistry) instead of "kagaku" because it's homophonous with 科学 (science).
No.121511
>>121510I don't see any meat on that bone, how can she call herself meaty?
No.121514
I started learning Japanese recently but i feel hyper stressed when i watch my amines now. I feel like i'm wasting time instead of learning Japanese? Anyone felt the same when the started?
No.121515
>>121514take it at your own pace. you don't need to do everything at once
No.121686
>>121514I felt like that at one point. Though I'm lazy by nature and hate putting things off so I justify still watching stuff through the reasoning that if I try and hear the anime before using the subs then I'm still somewhat learning. I know the grammar pretty well so it mostly just comes down to words I don't know and after ~200 days of Anki I have a good solid foundation of words.
No.121898
>>121897Write a formal complaint and send it to the Japanese embassy.
No.123665
>>123664wasn't there an anime recently where one of the girls (American) had that exact thing happen to her?
No.123913
>>115997did you try it with japanese or are your tests english?
No.123915
>>123913They were with Japanese, yes. Whisper can be used to transcribe most languages, but at least with the auto subtitle script I use, it just translates to English. I believe I had mentioned it in that now deleted /secret/ post, but translation can be rather iffy. Sometimes it decides to produce romaji, sometimes it hallucinates and entire sections are missing or timestamps offset, and other times it persists with an incorrect translation like "Oni-san". In general, transcription is much more reliable, but it has a tendency to sometimes write things phonetically with hiragana instead of kanji. I would say that the results are mostly acceptable. The example I uploaded to MEGA is still there for you to view for yourself if you're doubtful of what sort of results it can produce.
No.124204
>>124203From my understanding getting to know a dictionary is probably the quickest way outside of OCR. But the amount of time you'd spend learning how to use the dictionary would be probably proportional to how long it'd take you to just follow
https://xelieu.github.io/jp-lazy-guide/ and get all the stuff set up.
No.124207
>>124203>What is the fastest way to look up kanji without an OCR?At least for manga I got a habit of drawing them to look them up, doesn't take that long to draw a kanji anyways. I feel like it reinforces what it looks like to me and I can do this from my phone when travelling as well. Maybe not necessarily the most effective way as I've never tried OCR, but I can do it on public transport commute with ease which is better than not doing it at all. I also bookmark the kanji and vocabulary to import to anki via yomitan when I get home.
No.124208
>>124203I use this website occasionally for kanji look up, you've got various methods to search by. Not really fast, but faster than trying to draw it with a mouse.
https://kanji.sljfaq.org/mr.html No.124226
>>124203I draw them on google translate or japandict.com on mobile because you cant draw on the most drawable platform between the two on google translate
No.132358
>>132357Hai, sakka desu.
It's a funny way to write /qa/ spirit, a phono-semantic matching of it with eternity flipped around, pronounced kyuuei. Energy/spirit of kyuuei, /qa/ spirit.
No.132359
>>132358Now that you say it it seems so obvious.I even spelled out kyuuei, but still didn't make the connection. ちゅうー
No.132370
>>132357If I ever have a child, I'm going to name him 久永, I thought but that would probably be interpreted as bad omen now that I think about it... "the opposite of eternity"
No.132373
>>132359It definitely could've been more accurate, as the original Japanese spirit uses 魂/tamashii and not 気. You could even say it's straight-up wrong, I don't remember why I went with that in the first place.
>>132370There do exist some pairs of real words composed of the same characters flipped around, like 栄光 and 光栄, and they're by no means the opposite of each other (which makes them trickier to memorize).
No.133147
HOLOwoninsinsasetai
No.133442
¥権威
of all the kanji I've learned, this has to be the worst one yet in terms of pronunciation
No.133614
>>133613So... what does it say?
No.133615
>>133614大 became 犬 with the addition of the bird.
Which changes it from “big” to “dog”
No.133616
https://ixrec.neocities.org/immersion/Pretty neat. It's a list of different JP media sorted by their approximate difficulty for a non-native speaker.
No.133618
>>133616There's also jpdb
https://jpdb.io/I haven't used it for SRS or anything like that, but it has info about difficulty, unique words, kanji. It also has entire lists of words to practice, but I think it's fine to just grind out a popular 2K deck, familiarize yourself with some basic N5 and N4 grammar concepts and start reading anyways with help from textractor to quick lookup and mine to anki. Doesn't matter if one doesn't understand everything, practice will help immensely regardless.
No.133619
Yeah?, I do learn japanse by rewatching tatami galaxy
No.133621
>>133619>Words (per minute) 187.1you know that really is a lot of words
No.133622
He says Kaiji is about mahjong though. So I dunno how much his list stands to analysis.
No.134058
How many words synonymous with "Bill" are there in Japanese... How do you know which one to use....
No.134059
>>134058https://www.wordnik.com/words/billEnglish isn't that much easier apart from the writing system.
As a generic advice, consume more Japanese and contexts will make sense and patterns emerge.
No.134441
>>134432¥ 2:56>Later hiragana took over katakana's function in mixed writing, and by later I mean less than a hundred years ago>1946>and katakana was repurposed to encode loanwords.There were already instances prior to then of hiragana being used in mixed writing and katakana being used for loanwords.
But overall, this seems like an okay overview.
No.137113
I'm going to be taking a Chinese class this spring. It seemed like a fun idea, but I will probably suffer.
No.140926
>>140924but learning kanji is fun! I didn't even plan to learn Japanese, I was also too intimidated by the writing system. I just wanted to know a little of the basics like their phonetic alphabets and then numbers and what is a male and female bathroom door in Japan because that one is pretty useful, and it just kinda snowballed from there because it was fun to learn.
With a memory program like Anki you can make it into a memory game. Tons of decks to help learning hiragana/katakana and some basic kanji and core vocabulary (kaishi 1.5k is good, but the kanji will be a bit difficult to differentiate in the beginning I think. There's also a radical deck for the kaishi deck can use to help with that).
It is difficult in the beginning not going to lie, but it somehow gets easier instead of more difficult. You build a sixth sense for what's what. Learning new words gets easier over time. I started super slow and just kinda went faster over time.
No.141599
Something I've realized is that the imageboard system of using flashcards, apps and online pdf books is not effective to the standard scholastic system of using pen and paper.
Online tools have to be combined with writting things down on paper.
No.141600
>>141599I thought that was a given.
I've always written down anki cards.
No.141606
>>141600yah and nah. It can seem like you're learning faster with an app.
Speaking of which all my anki data has been deleted it seems so I have to redownload the deck I always use or find another
No.141624
Bold statement. I don't see why you have to use pen and paper if you aren't interested in physically writing kanji. Just immerse more. I am mildly interested in physical writing because the written language really is beautiful, but it's not an effective use of my time to learn stroke orders when I can just read all day or watch something all day.
No.141634
>>141624You don't really understand it. Memorization is much better with a tactical response
No.141635
>>141634You're wrong that I don't understand why you are doing it. I'm sure it helps, but I don't see why you wouldn't just read instead of spending time learning stroke order and kanji radicals to write it down. Even if you ignore learning to write, Every minute you're sitting there writing is a minute you're not spending seeing words and grammar in context to really absorb it without memorization which will help you just as much in outputting. It's a lot easier to produce a word you've read hundreds of times.
I just do my anki and then read. Then while reading I add new words to my anki reviews immediately based on how well I remember it from reading. If I don't know it, 1 day, if I can recall it while reading, start from 4 days to manage my review load.
Do it your way, I'm not saying it's wrong to write things down I am just refuting that it "has to" be combined with writing things down and I do question if it's more effective than just immersing. You can get some knowledge by memorization, but you want to absorb the whole meaning by seeing it in contexts either way which is why I think you're better off just reading. Words that I've read many times are a breeze when they show up in my reviews.
No.141636
>>141635You have to if you want to learn quickly.
No.141637
>>141636This is not true. I have never written anything and without getting into humblebrag numbers I have learned very fast. The grammar/vocab/kanji I am good at are not the ones I studied, but the ones I have read over and over in novels and heard in videos. I've never even opened a textbook.
Do it your way. Don't insist it's necessary.
No.141638
>>141637No, i feel as if it is malpractice to dissuade people from using pen and paper. This phenomenon is documented in teaching literature.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-writing-by-hand-is-better-for-memory-and-learning/ No.141640
>>141638Yes, I am sure it is better for studying something in school, especially if it's not interesting and you need to ensure you're paying attention to what you're hearing/reading/thinking. I am not convinced it is better than immersing all day every day for learning languages.
I reached fluency in English by reading all day every day, not with a pen and paper and writing down words I don't even quite grasp yet due to lack of context building in the brain. I don't think I ever really wrote anything on paper.
Your article is barely relevant in this matter. It's comparing disinterested people sitting there forced to do something, not people actively engaging with a language.
I don't want to discuss this further because I don't feel like you're even responding to me, just repeating yourself.
>>141639The article isn't wrong. It's about children learning best by handwriting which is absolutely true.
No.141644
Threads like this would be so much better if everyone who wanted to make blanket statements about what "works better" was required to pass JLPT N1 at the bare minimum.
No.141646
>>141640My point is that if you were serious you would throw everything you know at solving
the problem. Not that I think you have to, or should.
I'm not going to provide a long post on it. But it's worth pointing out that what I'm describing is researched. You'd struggle to find articles on adult education If you feel like it doesn't apply to adults
No.141722
Is Tae Kim supposed to go all the way to N1/2 ?
No.141724
>>141723high basics or intermediate? Or what level is it theoretically supposed to stop at?
No.141726
Well, I looked it up myself and people think the end of the book touches on N3 concepts
https://community.wanikani.com/t/tae-kim-which-category-do-i-need-for-jlpt-n4/52177/6 No.141732
>>141724Dunno man, it's been such a long time since I read it. But skimming the "advanced topics" section it seems to cover more or less intermediate topics.
No.141817
Progress to get to N5 by the 20th..
- Doing recap of 100 new a day(roughly 20 vocab) from core 2000 to catch up to where I stopped.. most of them i just say easy to because my vocabulary is larger than that.
- Writting out a chapter of tae kim focusing on vocabulary and important concepts worth remembering.
- Occasionally write out a bunch of N5kanji if I have the time
- Watch some of this game show to try and get a feel for how people actually speak.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTU4DTH20w8&t=1053s No.141877
Is so annoying how tae-kim uses unicode that doesn't work with Jisho so I can't find the stroke order
No.141898
>>141897I'm using the PDF so maybe that's it
No.141901
>>141900daddy's kitten got genderswapped
No.141977
>>141972wait, have you read the principles of brush strokes, and the standard steps? how are you writing these?
No.141993
If you want to take the route of the writer :
https://jisho.org/search/%23jlpt-n5There are a lot of good compilation dictionaries based on difficulty
No.142502
>>142322THIS IS WHY I TOLD YOU TO START EARLIER
SPEECH PRODUCTION IS RADICALLY DIFFERENT FROM COMPREHENSION
No.142562
>>142322Consume Japanese all day, internally practice speaking to yourself in the shower and when you buy food. You won't be great, but you'll be able to communicate soon enough.
No.143611
Too much imageboard happenings, not enough flashcard memorization.
>>142322Didn't you know.. if you study flashcards long enough you'll become a master of all aspects of the language..
No.143689
Not sure I can do more than 339 cards in 30.6 minutes but I guess I'm on track to have all the vocabulary and basic grammar learned in 7 days along with all those kanji..
No.143934
>>143853Buy those math papers with squares on them if you want to write. Freehand writing from the get go leads to pretty odd characters. Alternatively download kanji paper and use a printer. In general Japanese people don't handwrite like a computer font though.
No.143938
>>142322You want the real answer? Go to Japan and stay there as long as possible. Short of that. Find Japanese people/communities and try to interact. When they stop telling you to go home you'll know you've mastered the way of the sword.
You can watch anime without subtitles and game shows all day and it won't make much difference. It's like expecting to put a 4 year old in front of Nick Jr. and them magically learning how to speak at a level above retard. It isn't going to work without practice. Real practice. Which requires putting yourself around a native speaker and sounding like a 4 year old babbling retard. That's just how it is.
You might consider seeing if your local community college offers Japanese as a second language. Don't take the class unless a native Japanese person is teaching it. Be prepared to have a really hard time learning anything of value via their Engrish. The only thing of value there is them and them giving you time to practice speaking. They will know right off if you aren't properly rolling your Ls and ime they're usually very quick to correct you.
If you're a native English speaker you're going to spend months training your tongue to move in new ways. You'll always be gaijin though. So most of them will give you a pass (and laugh at your behind your back). It's hard to learn from people that come from a culture where they fake being polite. Which is why I suggest trying with one of them that's getting paid to do it. The average person won't even tell you that you sound retarded. At least not to your face.
No.144100
>>143853Tip:
As a beginner when you start anki, use an handwriting font, on the neater side of handwriting fonts (use 楷書体 as a search term) to not make it hard to read, but still handwritten.
It is much much easier to both really understand radicals, because they aren't as properly separated and kind of blur together in the standard computer fonts, and it also teaches you what more natural handwriting looks like both for writing and for being able to read.
No.144853
Too busy to study today...
>>143934I have a ton of scrap paper I'm going through. I guess I'll make some simple grids on them to at least try and get some sort of proportions
No.146739
Finished the first set of Japanese Core 2000 Step 1(of 10) on time burning through 100 cards a day... mostly recap..
but I've fallen behind on grammar and haven't done active listening training in a while
No.149348
is 向かう used in an abstract metaphorical sense or a literal one..
No.149350
>>149348both
for the metaphorical, you can check how certain content is 男性向け or 女性向け, here "facing/looking towards" in the sense of being aimed at a certain demographic
it's a common usage
No.149354
>>149348>>149349My advice for this kind of nuance is dont worry too much about it.
You are going to implicitly figure out how things are *really* used from immersion, not so much flashcards and studying. The flashcards and studying allows you to understand enough to learn the true nuances without having to start from scratch though.
You'll come across things like 真っ向こう and 向こう側, and 川の向こう.
I've yet to see 向かう in a fairly figurative way.
For example 子供向けアニメ while somewhat figurative is still easily interpreted as facing children. You'd likely somewhat figure that one out just from seeing it in use.
If you're thinking "the other side" as in afterlife, you'll see more 天国 地獄 冥土 冥府 幽世
No.149355
>>149354¥扉の向こうからActally got this in a novel right now
No.149365
>>149354i don't want to speak to someone and instead of giving directions I start giving life advice!
No.149367
>>149365I dont understand what you mean with this. It's clearly a language advice. I explained how I've mostly seen the word used, I explained how I think you can save time and effort by not worrying so much about nuance. I never told you how to live your life.
I dont understand in the slightest why are unhappy.
No.149368
>>149367it's a joke.
Because some sayings might be more abstract and others are more literally. So you might read the translation of a word and think it's about directions, but then you get to know the context better and it's actually about the directions one should take to achieve happyness
No.149370
>>149368Rereading your post I see now I completely misinterpreted it.
No.149605
>>149365>>149367>>149370That was a funny misunderstanding!
No.149625
>>143938I'll be going to Japan but before then is there anything I can use to try and improve my grammar usage through a routine daily practice or something?
No.149634
>>149605That's what I get for posting with no sleep whatsoever. I didn't even read the word right, he clearly wrote 向かう （向かう intransitive 向ける transitive） not 向こう (noun).
They're definitely related words, but this was just embarassing. I want to dig myself a hole and hide in it.
No.149643
>>143938>You can watch anime without subtitles and game shows all day and it won't make much difference.This simply isn't true. The more you read and listen, the more you will internalize grammar and collocations, understand how native speakers think and externalize their thoughts, acquire vocabulary, and so on.
>>149625Like that guy said you don't have to be in Japan to communicate with natives. Go pick fights on comment sections for Japanese videos, get a 浪人 and shitpost on 5ch, find some people to play TRPGs with on shitcord. But really, I'd tell you to just watch anime and play VNs.
No.150151
>>150104>I'm terrible at recalling the spellings of the kanji I readYou'll get better if you keep at it without furigana so you get that recall practice.
No.150179
>>150151Yes he shouldn't be furiganizing things.
Maybe you could make the argument if there was an extension that did it only for wago; I could see that being useful to not get overwhelmed with learning all the readings for the verbs et cetera as a beginner but for kanji in general, furiganizing would only be hampering your ability to start learning the readings, it's the equivalent of the yomichan-ing everything before actually trying to read trap some people fall into.
But he is saying at work so maybe he just means that he can't give it full attention at work, which fair enough. Respect for studying japanese on the company time.
No.151211
>>149643>This simply isn't true. The more you read and listen, the more you will internalize grammar and collocations, understand how native speakers think and externalize their thoughts, acquire vocabulary, and so on.Indeed. Then when you go to Japan you can imitate an anime school girl badly! Like the guy I know that was proud of being able to say
>My name is <name>while having no idea what the differences between Boku, Watashi, Ore and Atashi. He wasn't using the one for men.
So many subtle things you can learn wrong from anime. It isn't totally useless. But it's no replacement for having a native speaker around and proper instruction.
No.151214
>>151211Just so I'm clear this guy was actually putting in some effort. But a combination of a badly designed app for 'learning Japanese' and only being exposed to it through anime and video games led to him referring to himself in front of native speakers as a JC in a magical girl anime trying to be extra cute did. It was very very funny. Yes I'm mean and didn't correct him (at least not until later). I've seen the same issue at the other extreme as well. Grown men that sound like edgy school boys just because they were mostly self learned.
There are tons of subtle pitfalls like this. Most of the applications normal people are exposed to do not teach them. Or they overload them with crap like learn these 1,000 kanji you'll never use before you learn how to hold basic conversation. I see so many people obsessed with flash cards that would have been better served moving on to practical practice with speaking a long time ago. Then there are the 'communities' on the internet filled with people that might have passed the N4 giving horrible advice and proclaiming to be expert Wapanese citizens because they taught some crappy Engrish class to middle aged women that one time.
The truth is you need to just put yourself out there and start talking to people. Normal people. Either through the internet or in real life. Be prepared to fuck up a lot and be ready to laugh about it. Try to make close friends with some natives so they'll correct you when most would not for fear of not being polite.
There is value in consuming media. But day time television, game shows, news and stuff of that nature is better than anime, manga, video games and such. But those later ones are the main reason why a lot of people want to start so I understand. Just don't fool yourself into thinking all of Japan is like an anime (only extremely small pockets are otaku friendly). Furthermore. Don't think just because you can hold a basic conversation in Tokyo or other tourist areas that you'll be able to understand anything anyone is saying 1 mile in any direction. Just like most American English speakers can't understand people from places like the deep south or the bayou or old mountains.
It's a never ending process. You'll never finish and frankly most will have no need to go any further than being able to understand something like Precure.
One value with consuming media though is you can do it passively. You can learn a lot with say Precure playing softly in the background while you work or while you sleep. I started learning passively like that a long time ago. But no amount of it would have prepared me for proper instruction and interacting with natives. There is no way I would have gotten any good if they weren't also interested in learning English. Speaking of, you should have no issue finding a native to speak with. Since a lot of them are interested in learning English. So at least you have that advantage.
No.151226
>>151211>>151214Those pitfalls you speak boil down to sociolinguistics, not knowledge of the language itself, and are easily fixable. It's not "learning wrong" in any sense of the word.
>But day time television, game shows, news and stuff of that nature is better than anime, manga, video games and such.Dunno what to tell you. I never watched any of that boring real life bullshit and just spent most of my free time watching anime and reading manga and VNs. Was able to pass N1 pretty effortlessly. This was about 10 years ago.
No.151566
>>151214this is good advice and all, but how many kanji do I need to memorize to become fluent in Japanese
No.151570
>>151566three thousand
this is not a joke
No.151575
>>151570That's JS tier.
A true native knows OVER NINE THOUS
No.151591
>>151575WHAT 9000? THERE'S NO WAY THAT CAN BE RIGHT
No.151680
It seems like some people ITT are mainly focused on "fitting in" in Japan. If you aren't planning on getting some crazy plastic surgery then pick a more realistic goal. You'll have more fun too.
No.151752
>>151226>Was able to pass N1 pretty effortlessly. This was about 10 years ago.But did you go to Japan? If you went to Japan did you do anything outside of visiting tourist areas? Do you live with a family? Attend school? Have a job that wasn't catering towards gaijin? Do you regularly read the Newspaper? These are the types of things I'm taking about. There are many many people that have passed the N1 that would be totally lost in many areas of the country. At least when it came to getting around without use of a cell phone and signage.
Even the N1 is just an introduction. It means you've learned enough to maybe function in society. It doesn't mean that you've put in the work to actually interact with it.
>Those pitfalls you speak boil down to sociolinguisticsThat's all language. That's all nuance of language. The language is just entry into the culture. From there it's what you make of it.
I will always contend that anyone no matter what their background would learn faster by _doing_. The only way to _do_ is to become part of the culture and immerse yourself in it. Why spend years messing around with flash cards, books, apps and watching anime when you could have learned just as much in a few months by forcing yourself to live and speak it day-to-day?
I've met far too many people that 'know Japanese' and even 'translate Japanese content' that have never set foot in the country and have no idea of its culture and people outside of media and books. But this is nothing new. Its been like this all the way back to the 1600-1800s if you read the history books detailing contact between the west and the islands. For whatever reason there have always been LARPing otaku. Even in the days before television. I've also found that most of the people like this that are really outspoken are the same ones making demands that the society changes to their preferences. I do not understand why one would spend so many years studying about a culture only to hate most things about it.
Also being frank. Depending on your background, accent and upbringing no matter how much effort you put into speaking you may find it mostly impossible to ever become fully fluent to the point where you don't instantly sound off to a native speaker. My first JSL teacher was like that. She's a really good teacher. She put in far more effort than she should have. She got paid shit and only stuck it out because of her love for her students. But to this day she has HORRIBLE Engrish and it's really hard to understand half of what's she saying. I remember sitting in her class and being so confused at times and her having to repeat herself over and over again before we finally all understood that "Oh you meant <x> not <y>".
Never mind actually learning how to interact with them through the internet... It's like gibberish sometimes I swear. Even after all these years of lurking. I still get called out a lot myself. I probably get told to go home at least 5 times a month.
Everyone learns different though. So if what you did worked for you more power to you.
No.151754
>>151566>>151570The thing with kanji is you can pick them up as you go. A lot of people get caught up in this idea that they must memorize all the kanji first because it's part of reading. They want to learn how to read before they learn how to speak. As a result they never learn how to speak. Listening is not that hard. Speaking is the really hard part of learning any language. Your tongue will ache for hours after practice sometimes after you start. At least it did for me in the early days due to a heavy non-standard English accent.
No.151757
>>151680No gaijin will ever truly 'fit-in'. I don't mean that at all. What I mean is this; The fun part is being able to interact with actual people. Consuming media is fine. If you want to just learn enough to read manga or watch anime that's great. But if your goal is to learn the language so you can travel there or interact with Japanese tourists in your own country it's best just to jump in head first and start doing it. It isn't like it was decades ago. We have so many free voice chat options now and there are hoards of natives just chomping at the bit at the chance to practice English with you. In return they'll practice Japanese with you.
Actual people. Normal people will tell you (most of the time) if you're pronouncing or writing something incorrectly. As long as you can get through the initial politeness thing. Which I was already accustomed to due to coming from a similar culture (so-called 'honor culture').
The goal is to _make friends_. Either virtually through the internet or hopefully in person. Then you can do fun things together and share each other's culture. That's the pay off.
The initial user was asking about speaking. My opinion on this has always been the same; just do it. No matter how stupid you think you might sound. The only way to get any good at it is to practice it. Learning how to speak will greatly speed up the process of learning everything else. Because you can do things like point at a sign and ask your friend 'what does that kanji mean?' and learn whatever history they might happen to know about a local area by word-of-mouth instead of through a (usually biased) book or article.
Similarly, learning how to speak grants you access to many places you wouldn't be able to go into otherwise. You can venture outside of well traveled areas. Safe in the knowledge that you can speak well enough to ask locals for help even if their dialect is different. Since they can probably understand your broken gaijin version of the tokyo one.
No.151764
>>151680You are getting it backwards.
The people who talk about fitting in in Japan are learning the language for that reason. I would be one of them. What do you mean pick a different goal? Fitting in to the extent that a white born-westerner can
is the entire point.
No.151765
saw it
No.151840
>>151752I don't want to real life blog, but yeah. The only reason I took the N1 in the first place was because I needed it for an academic program, otherwise I wouldn't care about it or any other language certificates. Over the years I've had the opportunity to live in Japan for quite some time, frequenting fully Japanese academic environments and regular Japanese w*rkplaces. I am usually mistaken for a native over the phone until they ask for my name. Never had any difficulties understanding people or making myself understood. The biggest language-related hardship was actually
writing, since even a few months without writing practice are enough to poke large holes in your kanji writing skills. Or maybe I just have a bad memory. Either way, I usually have to check my phone when I need to handwrite something, unless it's like my address or something like that.
>That's all language. That's all nuance of language. The language is just entry into the culture. From there it's what you make of it.The point I want to make is that using a first-person pronoun that doesn't match your social traits is not "wrong" in the semantic sense. Categorically, any and every first-person pronoun means exactly that: "I", "me". Whether the use of a particular pronoun by someone with particular traits creates any dissonance to the listener is a separate matter - they will still understand what he's saying. And really, the caricaturesque examples you're bringing up sound like they have more to do with general social ineptitude. You're telling me a 30 year old man who watches 20 seasons of Precure will assume the way Precure characters talk is appropriate for him, a 30 year old man, if he doesn't have proper guidance from a native speaker...?
>I will always contend that anyone no matter what their background would learn faster by _doing_.The thing is that people of different backgrounds may decide to learn the language for different reasons, and I think that's fine. It's all the same language anyways, just do what feels enjoyable to you and never stop doing it, and the rest will come later. And, again, speaking for myself, I learned the language for 2D content, centered all my learning (if you can call it that) around 2D content, and I still managed to do fine in all real life situations where I needed Japanese knowledge. I don't think I'm extraordinarily intelligent or anything, so I'm gonna say all the credit goes to those thousands and thousands of hours of anime, visual novels, manga, video games and music.
No.151842
>>151840Just for curiosity's sake, when do you ever need to physically write kanji? Just for the N1 test?
No.151843
>>151842Living in Japan right now, never had to write a single kanji outside of Japanese studies. You need to be able to read them though.
No.151844
>>151842No, the JLPT doesn't test writing. Usually when you need to fill in paperwork, it's all physical, though again, you're usually just writing the same few things: your address, name and address of your employer/educational institution, etc. I don't remember the last time I had to write something longer-form by hand, like an essay. Probably when I was a student, but even then it wasn't too frequent. Thank god for laptops.
For what it's worth, nowadays a lot of native speakers forget how to write kanji a few years after graduating high school or college due to lack of practice.
No.151845
But leaving aside its practical uses, I think writing can be fun and I'd like to study calligraphy someday.
No.151911
>>151844I contend that the fact they do it in school contributes better to their understanding of how two similar looking kanji are actually different
No.151994
>>151911If you are doing just reading, it takes a long time to not confuse 浴 溶, 俗, 容, 谷, 欲, 熔, et cetera for instance. You are always just on the edge of confusing everything.
Personally about a year back I did about 3 months where i just studied kanji intensively and did about 2 thousand, not in RTK because that's stupid but by mining vocab in kanji dictionaries and writing it out, and I feel like vocabulary apprehension skyrocketed afterwards. Of course, that's a big opportunity cost. But if you are in this for the long run... But personally I have to know kanji properly all the radicals how they are written out, because of the line of w*rk I'm getting into.
No.152358
>>151911Surely it must help, but is it the most efficient way? I couldn't really tell you. Broadly speaking, the way they teach languages to children in compulsory education is inefficient by design, because its purpose is to teach basic literacy to every single student, so I'm inclined to say no. I'd argue just a general awareness of 部首 (kanji radicals) is more than enough.
No.152365
>>151994I like having to separate the ones that are practically just one stroke difference on computer fonts (depending on the font and size of course, easier with big writing for this example it's actually quite noticeable in writing) like 鳥 and 烏 that show up alone and have a roughly similar meaning. The ones you listed above are at the very least usually subconsciously separated by the context of any sentence.
The advantage of reading is you get constant rapid input of vocabulary and grammar. Physically writing may help with learning to write and to some extent improve your kanji distinguishing abilities, but when you're reading you're doing a lot more things than just practice kanji. I think in terms of output it's more time efficient to write with a computer, you'll get instant feedback from your IME and can focus on producing words and sentences instead of kanji which also means you can get more output practice in the same time which will translate from writing to speaking as well.
No.152367
I'm a bit surprised there's no mention of mokuro (manga ocr for yomitan) and memento (yomitan lookup for anime subtitles with one click flash card creation). They save me so much time when reading or watching things a fair bit above my vocabulary level. I don't mind going in raw and ignoring lookups or doing it manually if it's a somewhat appropriate level for me though. Just don't wanna waste immersion time.
¥Mokurohttps://github.com/kha-white/mokuro (Generate files)
https://reader.mokuro.app/ (Better webreader)
¥Mementohttps://ripose-jp.github.io/Memento/Obviously textractor is also nice for VNs when you're still low on kanji/vocab, but everyone knows that one.
No.152368
>>152367And a huge amount of subtitles on
https://jimaku.cc/ for your favorite torrented show.
No.152409
do you have favorite kanji or am I going insane... writing this is really smooth 病院
No.152410
>>152409My favourite is 吊 cause it looks like a guy walking forward.
No.152411
>>152409I quite like 你, but that's 中国語 not 日本語.
No.152412
>>152411It is if you say it in a Japanese accent
No.152414
You can literally feel 痙攣.
No.152426
i like the harmony in 怠. I like bug kanji like 蟻 蛾.
淵 is amazing.
>>152414Good choice!
>>152413I don't like 恐, the upper part is just ughhh. 怖 is cool though.
No.152431
>>152411？？？？？？
why are you calling なんじ 中国語?
No.152441
>>152440teach me how to write and i'll give you some
No.152442
>>152441and by that I mean in english
No.152443
File:S.jpg (39.88 KB,1200x628)
>>152442depends on if you are of the block printing or cursive school.
No.152462
https://enunciate.arts.ubc.ca/japanese/introduction/introduction-to-phonetics/ screw getting a girlfriend
screw going to japan
I'm going to study phonology with the UBC online lectures instead
No.152708
>>152409爽 and 渋 are neat. and I've always found 脇 highly amusing - I imagine getting a power up by licking some girl's armpit.
No.152740
I've decided I'm just going to learn kanji for a while. I'll probably never go to East Asia but at least I'll be able to read some. Always thought the writing was cool. Will be easier to learn hanzi later.
This site
https://nihongodera.com/daily_kanji and Wiktionary for the sexy sexy etymology will be my main tools for a now.
Pic is a daoist talisman iirc.
No.152971
>>152367I use yomininja for universal OCR.
It also can cooperate with yomitan for mining into Anki. Available for Linux, Windows
No.153410
Frankly I'm even starting to think flashcards are kinda useless. After I get past Core 2000 part 3 I'll probably just give it up for actual language material
No.153413
>>153410flashcards are quite useless, but they are helpful if you "kind of" know the language from long term exposure, but you can't read or write/speak at all. Drilling vocabulary is only useful after being somewhat familiar with the language and being able to *hear* the phonemes properly. Whenever you learn a language, think like a literal baby.
No.153414
>>153413I've heard the baby thing but I think there's been actual research that adults have to learn through comparison to their native language because they don't have those types of capabilities after they pass a certain age.
No.153416
>>153414This is bullshit, the only reason adults don't have that capability is that they don't usually don't have the time to learn in the "natural" way, which involves first understanding the language subconsciously and then being taught to formalize that understanding.
After all, all throughout history, people have been lost in foreign lands and learned the languages there, without any teaching material whatsoever, only through context, exposure and instruction.
The whole "brain plasticity" is a coping mechanism invented to distract from the actual issues which are that natural language acquisition is not fun and that people just don't have the time.
No.153420
>>153413Flashcards helped me go over almost all the N5-N1 grammar and learn to read over 2k kanji and 10k words in 1 year. They are not useless. It's very quick to do reviews if you also read a ton. Of course I also spent all that time watching anime and reading manga/vns.
You don't need to use them if you don't want to, but the idea they are useless is idiotic hyperbole on par with watching anime makes you yell out rasengan to strangers.
>>153410>give it up for actual language materialYou are supposed to immerse in combination with the flashcards and it's perfectly normal for people using flashcards to also use other means to study such as looking things up on the internet.
No.153421
>>153419
I'm going to disagree because I think that there's a certain starter point where it's worthwhile not to touch actual material and then you start mixing, but I don't think that even mixxing it is that useful, except I probably will for a bit after I blitz through the second deck by the 10th, then go onto the third which is supposed to be roughly N3 ranked vocabulary
No.153422
>>153410Flashcards are not useless, but they're slow and don't guarantee good results, especially when people use cards and cards only. The problem is that if you just jump into the actual language you'll want to shoot yourself because every two steps there'll be five words you don't know written with ten different runes while you don't even have the vocabulary of a toddler, or their grasp of basic grammar. What'll do you best is an introductory course, and not self-study, because getting to any serviceable level in three months with no guidance is most likely beyond your capabilities (and those of most people to ever live).
>>153413The problem with training for hearing is that he still won't be able to read, and reading is one the main ways to self-study and a requirement for what he wants to do. But it's physically impossible for him to attain competency reading in such short demand, so it's not a bad point.
>>153414Lots of linguists today don't agree with the poverty of stimulus argument, or the idea that it's limited to young'uns in general. Babies spend shitloads of time around native speakers and have their attempts at speech corrected by them, sadly grownups do not have such a luxury.
>>152409I really like 死, it's the only character where 歹 connects with the right part and has some really nice composition. A classic. Also partial to 勿, 平 and 呉.
No.153423
>>153422I'm being hyperbolic with the useless. That I'm already starting to feel the dropoff in effectiveness pretty early into doing them because the sentence example are very poor. Then if the sentences are poor what's even the point in learning the individual kanji or words.
And I know how to read stroke order for a lot of Kanji already just by knowing probably 100 so I can go into actual reading material and find it out on Jisho or whatever
No.153424
>>153422>>153420If you can't physically "hear" the language, you're just done and you are never getting anywhere. I think shortcutting actually hearing what is being said, even if you don't understand it is critical in any language.
After all, only if you can hear what is being said, can you learn how to read.
No.153425
I literally learned English solely watching documentary videos with English subtitles on. The only reason I cannot do this with Japanese is the different characters, I don't feel motivated to learn kanji.
No.153426
>>153424>If you can't physically "hear" the language, you're just done and you are never getting anywhere.Why do you assume using flashcards means not doing listening practice?
>After all, only if you can hear what is being said, can you learn how to read.Dumb stupidposter.
No.153427
>>153426I mean something far more fundamental than "listening practice". To use a provocative example, getting to the point where Chinese doesn't sound like ChingChongBingBong to you. Being able to actually hear what is being said and differentiate between different words that are being said.
It's a few steps below listening practice.
No.153428
yeah, something that really differentiates your "I can listen" skills to "I can really understand what's being said", which I experienced in French classes, is that if you can actually write out what you're hearing you've got far more competence than actually listening.
No.153429
>>153425have you tried karaoke
No.153430
>>153429>have you tried karaokeIt'd be extremely painful
No.153431
>>153423If you want, there are rankings out there of works based on their complexity, you can check out Shirokuma Cafe if you want to get your feet wet. That one gets recommended a bunch.
>>153424>>153427The problem with Japanese is precisely that you could fully internalize its phonetics and still be completely unable to read basic sentences for reasons entirely disconnected from sounds. That's what sets Chinese characters apart from the phonetic scripts of most languages ever.
No.153432
>>153431>The problem with Japanese is precisely that you could fully internalize its phonetics and still be completely unable to read basic sentences for reasons entirely disconnected from soundsAnd this is precisely the difficult double-bind of these regional languages. You NEED to know the phonetics, you need to be able to hear what is being said, to learn how to read. This is how reading is generally taught. Sounds matched to text. Learning both at the same time is difficult and might even be detrimental. Similarly learning how to read, but not how to hear or say what you are reading, is also not helpful.
Natural language is always sound first.
No.153433
>>153431yeah, I think I'll check. Some graded books.
There's a lot of NTR rpg games(they tend to be pretty story heavy) I've bought which seem to be very well liked but didn't touch because they were either untranslatable.
So I was thinking that i'd hit a certain point where I'm not looking up the kanji of words every few pages and can start to pick up on grammar instead of vocab.
No.153437
>>153410doing the core2k word-only cards was suffering when I tried it and I can confidently say that I don't remember a single fucking thing from that attempt
ended up finding a tango order sentence card deck and I can absolutely feel the difference in retention and being able to recognize the word in media
but it is also just slower
No.153438
>>153432Nobody disagrees that phonetics are important, but your advice is rather vague and not particularly helpful either. Are you truly arguing he shouldn't learn to read until he can perfectly hear what's being said?
>Sounds matched to text.There's a lot of words whose correct writing is semantically determined, not phonetically. Miru, ageru, noboru, kakeru, hakaru, all have multiple graphical forms which come from the exact same spoken word and denote different shades of meaning. Or the on'yomi homonyms that are only distinguished in writing, which is not at all rare for literary Chinese.
>>153433Give it a try and see what you struggle with. You didn't know what the te-form was until a couple days ago, so it'll be a lot, but for you it's probably a necessary experience.
>>153436¥ No.153442
>>153438>Are you truly arguing he shouldn't learn to read until he can perfectly hear what's being said?yes, until you can reliably indentify nearly every phoneme of the language in naturalistic speech, it is pointless to try learning how to read. At least in the case of languages with a limited number of phonemes. As a matter of fact, I know that Chinese is taught that way, even if it is slightly more compressed.
The very first thing being taught is the identification of the phonemes. This issue is even more pronounced in Chinese, because it is completely pointless to even try learning it without 1. knowing all the sounds and 2. hearing the sounds while studying Hànzì.
Japanese has some additional nonsense thrown in, but fundamentally the process is the same. Learn to hear the language, the study the language.
No.153444
>>153439Our TARDGAMI to be WRANGLED by the LIBERATOR Yukito.
>>153442Then you must realize that it's also the case that learners are taught
basic phonetics, usually lacking in the details of allophony and native shortcuts. It's also the case that native speakers regularly use semantic and syntactic context to get around the slurring that occurs in all languages, comprehension is not dependent on just phonetics. I'm not arguing that he shouldn't be able to hear, of course, but he doesn't need to know the variance in the intervocalic and final realizations of ん before he starts reading. It's the ultimate chicken and egg situation, and exclusivity in any direction without guidance will hamper him.
No.153447
Oh yeah, but if the learner in question wants to get a solid grasp of the theory, I think the best I can recommend is Dogen's course:
https://nyaa.si/view/1497535It's first pitch accent until #33 (the very important chapter on vowel devoicing), but since pitch in Japanese is a) not highly contrastive, and b) particularly hard to reproduce, I recommend skipping starting with the phoneme episodes. He covers tons of stuff, and is the overall best resource on Japanese phonetics that I know of.
No.153449
>>153444fair enough, I but I still think that the base level required to learn how to read is somewhat higher than zero.
No.153532
>>153527it says in the middle "the guy that hates everything in this world"
he is positively steaming
No.153867
>>153865it's 噌, used in miso
you can easily find it by looking up other characters with the same component in wiktionary (増, 僧, 憎) and then at the top in the translingual or chinese sections click on the shared element (曾) and THEN looking at its list of descendants find the one you're looking for
it's usually more consistent and quicker than trying to figure out what radicals the RADKFILE guys decided to tag it as having (in this case it's 并日田 for 曽 and ハ日 for 曾, moderately nonsensical), especially in cases such as this one where some instances of old vs new are encoded as pairs (增/増) while others only change depending on font (僧, 噌, 憎)
No.153868
>>153867I was wondering if it was a font thing since I saw 噌 in the lookup (searching by 日田ハ口 radicals), but it wasn't 'exact' to how it is on the page, so I kept looking.
Thanks.
No.153869
>>153865>>153868Use
https://kanji.sljfaq.org/mrj.html and "build" the kanji, it's better than radical search. Or just draw it on google translate or something, it should be able to find it no matter how bad your handwriting is.
No.153870
>>153869I've been using
https://jisho.org/#radical to put things together, but thanks for the link.
No.153871
>>153869this is the same system used by jisho or takoboto, and i believe generally what people refer to as radical search (given jisho's preponderance)
No.153873
>>153871Oh. Bit of a misnomer, then. Kanji only have one radical.
No.153877
>>153873technically, yes, but there are a lot of publications that by "radical" mean "basic codified grapheme"
in the context of this conversation, 曾 was originally a visual representation of a basket, as you can see
here and
here, showing a square body with two straps, but this was later segmented and simplified and nowadays 曽 looks closer to 日+田, it would not be unreasonable to call them its radicals
indeed if you look at
kanjipedia's entry, its 部首 is said to be 曰 (not 日), even though this is also ultimately ahistorical and not particularly useful today, humanum is more accurate in listing 曾 as itself being its sole unique component, but you're not going to find it as such in any kangxi-based dictionary
No.153996
At the last section of Essential Grammar in Tae Kim. This theory stuff is really starting to get impractical.
Core 2000 part 2 should be done today as well.
Meaning time to create a new plan that can get me to a JLPT4 standard. One with like no theoretical learning.
Core 2000 part 3 is supposed to be the most complicated words in the set. I remember getting stumped on some of them in the past. But overall, just switch to reading and pulling out important words from literature and media. Then doing vocabulary memorization of those
No.153998
>>153868Here are some other kanji that might also confuse you due to font differences.
For these kanji in particular, I found these pages helpful for better understanding what these differences are and why they exist:
https://web.archive.org/web/20230603010448/https://fontnavi.jp/zakkuri/304-jis2004_jis90.aspxhttps://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~ax2s-kmtn/ref/jis2000-2004.htmlhttps://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/JIS2004 No.154054
I keep getting filtered by kanji. I had learned katakana in 2023 using Duolingo and now I learned it again but I don't know what to do next because kanji is too much for my retard brain.
No.154056
>>154054Delete Duol*ngo from your internet history, for your own good. It does not teach grammar, it teaches you how to reorder words how they want you to and it is not good. It is not good for learning kanji or words either.
Learn some basic grammar, learn to recognize a few hundred kanji and some thousand or two thousand words, and start reading erotic novels about little girls going to the park and eating ice cream. You might wanna start with a manga though, pictures can help with context in the beginning until you get used to things. Mokuro (ocr manga) is great in combination with Yomitan (web browser hover over any word for dictionary lookup).
For grammar, maybe read through tae kim.
You can also try DOJG and DOJG deck
https://core6000.neocities.org/dojg/https://dojgdeck.neocities.org/It will streamline your learning a bit if you need a kick in the back to know where to walk in the beginning.
If you really REALLY struggle to tell kanji apart you can try something like
https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/1722008986 this "radical" deck to learn some basic components. The names are not official and they are not actually radicals.
After that I think kaishi 1.5k is maybe better than core 2k or core6k
https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/1196762551 but I honestly didn't use either of them so I can't say for sure. I just know kaishi is suposed to be hyper specific for people who want to start immersing immediately which everyone should want to.
You'll want to mine your own words anyways, it's easier when your reviews and new words are all words you've recently tried reading. Misunderstandings can be cleared up over time when a sentence doesn't make sense with context, then you look into the word causing issues due to multiple meanings or a vaguely different meaning than you thought.
No.154062
>>154056I don't use duo anymore, I learnt katakana from tofugu this time.
> to recognize a few hundred kanji and some thousand or two thousand woYou shouldn't say that so lightly, "just learn 100+ alphabet bro" but I suppose I have no choice. I will also use these links, I was looking for resources.
>>154055Thank
>>154061Wakaranai :(
No.154065
>>154062>I learnt katakana from tofugu this time.I assume you mean kana. Katakana is アイウエオ, Hiragana is あいうえお. Kana is the word for both of them, basically not Kanji. If you mean you only learned Katakana then before you do anything else you need to learn Hiragana. Hiragana is pretty much everywhere in Japanese. Katakana is mostly used for emphasis or loan words.
>You shouldn't say that so lightly, "just learn 100+ alphabet bro" but I suppose I have no choice. I will also use these links, I was looking for resources. I have forgotten a little bit of what it is to start out. I remember it was hard, but I was stubborn and kept going. You will need to learn thousands of words and a ton of squigglies. That's the reality. It will happen over time, not in one day. It's okay. It gets easier at some point.
Anki is magic. It's scientifically designed to help you learn a lot fast by having you recall what something is right before you forget it and expanding the durations over time. It's not perfect, the words you will truly understand are the ones you've seen over and over in context, but it's a good way to bootstrap your beginning.
You can take it kinda slow in the beginning, it's the hardest part for most people since everything is new and you don't have any prior information to build on and they really can't read to retain information. You will mix up words a lot, you will mix up kanji a lot. Failure is learning. Fail a lot, every day. Anki will remind you of your failures, every day. Stay strong, there's nothing wrong with you the beginning is just difficult.
I don't know how much you can handle, but I started with only a few kanji a day and like five words a day because I was afraid of failure. This obviously didn't get me very far, but it was difficult enough until I could get over my fear of failing to remember something. You could probably manage this amount to some extent. You will probably forget the words a few times before you remember them, it's okay. When you start getting the hang of it you can try upping to 7 words, 10 words, and so on. I started doing 20 a day after about 3 months by slowly pushing my limits. I do more than this now, but you really don't have to and reviews will cut into immersion time. Just don't go nuts adding 50 words because they will pile up and you will probably forget half of them and reviews will be completely unmanagable in a matter of days or weeks.
I didn't touch any grammar in the beggining and just focused on kanji and words for some time until I felt I was used to that and wanted more, at least it made the example sentence words readable.
If you're struggling with grammar whenever you start that, maybe the first 12 videos in this Cure Dolly playlist will help:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSvH9vH60Ig&list=PLg9uYxuZf8x_A-vcqqyOFZu06WlhnypWjI stopped at the first 12 and moved on to other resources, but it felt helpful at the time when I didn't even understand the core concepts and reading was hurting my brain. No idea about the rest of the videos, didn't watch them.
Sorry to overload you with information, but take your time. It's gonna take a while.
>Wakaranai :(I just wanted to leave a cute kanji picture that you will look back on one day and go "oh I know this". The text basically says something to the amount of "I will be delighted if this can be useful to you" although not literally that.
No.154066
https://dokushoclub.com/free-reading-resources/n4-free-reading-resources/ Gonna try and tackle a book or two for a month until I switch over to N3 grade for the rest of the year, I figure
No.154068
My 1 month N4 speedrun ciriculum is probably going to be something like this... it's designed to gateway me into not being completely out of depth approaching N3 graded content and communication topics during the months of June/July.
Raw Vocab+Kanji :Core 2000 Part 3 along with already studied 1 & 2https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/1752619191Supposedly the hardest in the original Core 2000 set?
- overall 600+ kanji in sentences
Literary Reading:n4 bookshttps://dokushoclub.com/2025/04/25/n4-the-human-chair/Along with 2 other selections from:
https://dokushoclub.com/free-reading-resources/n4-free-reading-resources/- Pick out vocabulary I don't know and memorize them from 3 books
Mixed media entertainment:Anime/Eroge/GamesNot for purpose of vocabulary but casual understanding of media.
Cheating allowed for better engagement with material.
- 3 major titles for the month
Listening:Audiodrama/ASMR etc.Be able to hear words in casual settings.
Applying learned vocabulary with a vocal settings.
- 1 title per week
No.154069
Goal: Hit a strong enough beginner level that I can begin to tackle intermediate topics and approach dynamic+real world language scenarios using tools and learned skills.
No.154079
>>154065I learnt Hiragana. My brain is fried, fuck.
I'm a wagie so I will try to use what little time I usually have to follow this advice. Going slow is the key for me. Going too fast makes me forget.
>I just wanted to leave a cute kanji picture that you will look back on one day and go "oh I know this"Hope I get there one day anon.
No.154094
Something kinda concerning about the listening training is how I can't actually look up words on the fly so I have to just make mental note of everything I don't understand and try to make associations with vocabulary I'll learn later.
Very hard to get vocabulary training out of listening
No.154095
This site looks pretty great.
https://yomuyomu.app/lessons/courses/2-the-human-chair?chapter=2If I get value out of it I'll probably get 2 months worth of subscription on it
No.154097
>>154094the secret to listening, as insane as it may sound is "to just understand it". What is crucial for that is film. You want to watch film (or anime, I suppose), so you can SEE the subject of the conversation. If you know WHAT they are talking about, you can make connections much more easily.
A central aspect in studying by listening is being comfortable with not understanding. Your brain is good enough to handle all this, as long as you can understand the words.
No.154099
>>154094Have you tried using the memento video player? It has yomichan built-in for Japanese subtitles, so you can look stuff up.
No.154100
>>154097true enough. I was thinking of approaching listening the same way you do in an academic setting with the cassette tapes just playing things like interviews, expecting you to the fill out a questionaire to show you understood it or not.
Having the visual cues is much more realistic. Still I think I will do both, but I should place more emphasis on the visual parts of listening
No.154101
>>154100pick a movie, any movie.
Preferably one you have already seen before and just watch it in your target language with subtitles in your target language and try to keep up. That's all there is to listening practice.
It'll be grueling and not very fun, but it works quite well.
No.154102
>>154101Was picking that movie part of your plan?
No.154104
>>154101dubfags would tell you they're unable to hear the difference between hardy's peerless performance and that of yamaji
No.154106
>>154104honestly, the place scene is such a masterpiece of acting. Aidan Gillen's performance of CIA is one of the highest points of cinema in the previous decade.
No.154308
Flashcards are too addicting... It's like the only thing I can do consistently with little push. I know I need to stop doing them but I can just pull out my phone and run out 300 of them for 30 minutes and then feel like I've done enough
No.154313
>>154308Used to do the same thing, but didn't feel like it wasn't enough. My goal was remembering as much kanji/vocab as I could, and I was doing it everyday for 2+ hours for at least a year; came out remembering a shit ton of kanji. The readings at least... Writing goes away as soon as you stop anki (if you were practicing writing). I don't know the deck you're using, but the deck I was using also gave audio/text examples of the kanji in use so it worked immersion as well.
No.154314
>>154308I wake up, drink my coffee, do my flashcards, then read and watch stuff the rest of the day. Flashcards are a chore, but not one I dislike doing. You don't need to stop doing them, but you need to get addicted to something else in addition. If you really need some numbers to motivate yourself, start chasing numbers on anidb/mal/al, mydramalist, vndb, and such. Feel accomplishment in your "hours immersed" statistic that you can look at and go, wow I used Japanese a lot this month.
Besides, need to mine new cards.
No.154328
This yomuyomu.app website actually has a flashcard builder where you can save kanji from their articles and stories... it's something I've wanted for hgames earlier this year but would have had to manually build myself.
No.154329
Speaking of which, has anyone built their own decks before?
No.154330
>>154328>it's something I've wanted for hgames earlier this year but would have had to manually build myself.Textractor + Yomitan give one click cards in eroge. You can then use a kanji addon to check all your mined kanji if you want to go over them individually. You can also configure it to allow setting up kanji cards in addition to words, but you'll have to do each kanji manually as you see them.
Makes it easy to start immersing fast.
>>154329The standard is to start with something like 1.5k kaishi or 2k core and start mining from there on. You should automate it as much as possbile for the things you immerse with. I've mined 15k cards this year while reading and watching things.
>>152367 Use these for mining from anime and manga effortlessly. If I see a word relatively frequently, but keep forgetting it, I put it on top the pile so I can focus on learning it immediately and stop wasting time looking it up.
https://learnjapanese.moe/vn/https://learnjapanese.moe/yomichan/ No.154332
>>154331yeah, I just put them into a spreadsheet and said I'd do it later