This isn't me, but I wish it were.

I don't like her very much at all. This time it's me for to be the odd one out on kissu and say that I'm not a huge fan of the show itself, although it's cool to see how far they go with the nudity and such

sperming over magical girls

>>120896
I feel you, anon. It's fucking magical how well they managed to capture the entire mindset behind it all.

She gets us, and we get her. Cherish that feeling.

https://kissu.moe/rules
>Individuals under the age of 18 must not view, use or post on Kissu

I've been trying to catch you in the act for so long. And now you have finally confessed.

>>120901
holy fuck this site is full of
TEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNSSSS

yeah i'm a 14 year old girl
what of it

Hey, kid. Wanna become a NEET?

>>120902
>>120903
Young and fresh pissteens...

>>120901
Utena is way too young to dress like an old women!

>>120906
The clothes are her closet (or her shackles, if you will).
She herself is a bundle of sexual aggression and fetishes. If not for these clothes, she would not be able to have a civilian life.

I thought they were JKs. What the h*ck.

>>120908
this anime is hella pasted

>>120908
Mahou shoujo can't be JKs. How the fuck is a JK a shoujo? Nobody wants to watch mahou hags.

>>120910
>Nobody wants to watch mahou hags.
You sure about that? There is definitely a market for cute hags.

>>120910
The anime probably won't show her, but this story has a 20-year-old magical girl.

>>120911
>cute hags
Oxymoron.

>>120910
>>120911
i dropped the hag version of precure because i was hoping they would transform into adult magical girls. they did not.

>>120914
What, seriously? How do they fight the evil guys then?

a hag mahou would be fun i think

>>120915
Lolification.

>>120915
they transform into the kid versions of themselves

>>120915
de-aging

Frieren also speaks to me.

>>120920
pleased to meat you Frieren

>>120920
they sure do enjoy making the food comical in this series

>>120920
seems the be a recent theme with elves and eating

>>120923
the announcement of the fat elf anime opened the psychic floodgates

>>120920
Hope frieren brings back skinny girls

>>120920
Looks like she's in a runescape PoH

>>120925
Oh, you've got guts saying that 'round here

>>120927
She wants to be skinny too. That's why she's eating an orange and tea

>>120916
No hags allowed

love it when characters are literally me

>>120931
So, are you watching It's Time For Torture, Princess?

The struggle is the entire point, you dumb mahou bitch.

>>120933
I like how this episode really cemented that Utena admires mahou shoujo over simply S&M. She doesn't want her idols to be ruined, but she wants to make them suffer and be forced to overcome hardship to achieve victory in the end. Also Utena's seiyuu was top-notch, hard to believe she's really a newbie.

>>120934
Sadism has many motives beyond just pain, though. It could be because you want to see everything your lover can offer, positive and negative alike. It could be to help them overcome pain and grow from it as a person. It could be to instill a sort of dependence on you so you can protect them. I'd say in Utena's case it's a bit of all three.

The chaotic good character

>>120934
la bruja correctora

Man, I just don't get it. People are really excited about this show, but I just don't see it. It's interesting to see what they're able to get away with, but it just doesn't draw me into it at all. Why is this like 10x more popular than Immoral Guild?

>>120938
Because they have a lezdom fetish. Same with every hentai series

>>120938
Also cuz immortal guild had inappropriate comedy in the titillating parts

>>120938
Futoku was the better show, but the ecchi was mostly boring monster stuff with old hags. Only perverts are actually aroused by that, normal people just think it's weird or funny. JCs being corrupted into sex-crazed sluts speaks to people on a primal level even if nothing around it is worthy of note.

>>120941
you know mangafags are really upset at the adaptation they're saying it's lots of filler with chapters shuffled around

>>120941
But there were two... well, yeah it was definitely more humorous. This mahou one is extremely sexual and doesn't relent and I can see the appeal in that

Remember when people said the Olympics were gonna neuter anime's sexuality

>>120944
dodged that bullet thanks to covid

Should she rape old utena

>>120943
Toxic is a hag. A sexy hag, but a hag nonetheless. Only Maidena is a sex-crazed JC and she only got one decent ecchi scene that only showed up on the BDs. I guess there was the titty face girl too, but she also lacked action.

Anyway, the point is that tentacle bondage and slime dissolving clothing is pantyshot-tier fanservice and that two humans engaging in lewd acts with purpose is infinitely more ecchi.

>>120938
I am a creature of sexual desire, yes. But that doesn't mean that I automatically perk up and lose my mind each time there's a pair of tits on the screen. I need more than that to titillate me. Further, to actually gain my appreciation an anime needs to go above and beyond in excelling at character and passion to endear me to it. Futoku no Guild was fun, and had some nice ecchi and comedy to it, but that's most of what it was. Laid back and nice. It never allowed me to quiver in excitement or lose myself to the screen. Something that MahoAko does constantly.

Utena's passion for magical girls doesn't lie in her want to corrupt them, but rather a twisted desire born from her admiration of them (Hence 'Akogarete' in the title that the tard localizers tl'd to "gushing over" in its english version). >>120935 probably put it best in that Utena's sadism is in part a way for her to acquire a greater understanding of the totality of those magical girls she's cheered on. She wants to see them suffer and struggle, beaten to the last ounce of strength, and then she wants them to stand up with pride that overcomes and defeats her deviant attacks. Of course, there's also the sexual aspect to her acts that she gets off on, enjoying the pleasure and pain she's forcing on the girls. But that fantastical roleplaying element is first and foremost. This is shown best in the latest episode where she loses interest and instead shows disgust when Azul shows signs of succumbing to pleasure. She may be horny and sadistic as all hell but she has principles. Which I respect and see her as more of an actual character for rather than ecchi convenience device. This anime and its main character don't just objectify magical girls for cheap sexual gratification, they genuinely love them.

In my specific case as well, I'm somewhat of a sadist myself so I thoroughly enjoy the ecchi put forth by the anime. It's done extremely well in a way that ticks all my boxes for enjoyment. Including a divergence between myself and Utena where I more enjoy the breaking down of Azul's will, but at the same time in my AI stories as soon as that's done I'm also done with the character since there's nothing more to play with so in my own way I find her continuing the struggle against that pleasure hotter. There's probably also some subtlety's in the way the scenes are directed that make them more eyecandy to me than stuff in Futoku no Guild as well, but that's harder to really articulate since it's not my brain doing the thinking in that case. Add on top of all of this that the seiyuu cast is absolutely phenomenal (despite having a fair bit of rookies including Utena for whom it's her first real role!) and it just makes every single scene that much better. I have to think that my enjoyment may only have been 2/3rds of what it currently is if not for this god-tier cast and the effort they put into the roles.

When it comes to the rest of the cast I can't help but love them as well. Venerita's unabashed and comical propensity towards evil gives me a chuckle every time. Alice is extremely cute, though we haven't seen too much of her. I like how her power reverses the roles others normally would assume over her as a sleepy and shy loli with the implication of her being truly open and honest inside of her playhouse. Kiwi's a bit bratty but I like her one-sided possessiveness of Utena and hot blooded nature. Then speaking of hot blooded that brings me to Sulphur who's probably my favorite outside of Utena right now. Her accent combined with her Yankee mentality and absurd strength make for a sight to behold and stare in awe at as she tears off the kiddie gloves when not in the public eye. Magenta more than the rest is the perfect mold of what a proper typical pink is: pure-hearted, empathetic and outgoing, a firm believer in justice, and a bit of a baka. Azure is a fat cow that struggles against her instinctual animal heat and I love watching her mind slowly break through discovering her M side. Vatz acting as more of an idol manager than magical girl mascot is pretty funny as well. In addition to the charms of each character, the anime knows how to utilize them for interactions with each other well, and some of the developing character dynamics like between Baiser and Kiwi or Magenta and Alice give me great pleasure.

The story too is just the right mix of serious and silly, where most of the Tres Magia vs Enormita is treated as more of a playful bout, even by the team leads Vatz and Venerita, while there does seem to be a reason in the grander picture for why the magical girls even exist.

>>120948
I think 'gushing over' was supposed to be a lewd pun more than an over localization, really

>>120949
I guess that could make sense

The censorship of dialogue was new to me and really really dumb.

>>120948
As someone who knows mahou shoujo fans, this analysis is true for a lot of real magical girl fans, who tend to be much more fetishistic than most other "sub-fanbases"(?) of the anime fandom.

Tags for precure can get quite /d/ for example, and the volume of this content is surprising considering how niche this genre is among adults

>>120948
Thank you for the thorough response. I guess that was another thing I was going to mention; I don't like how mean it is. Immoral Guild is happy, although there is a bit of bullying that ends up not affecting the characters at all. It's a "Kyaaah~ kimo!" instead of mentally breaking them. They're still happy girls enjoying life.

>>120949
Yeah, after googling it it says that it means "yearning" so it doesn't seem some bastardization to me. I'm pretty sure I saw someone mention this on nyaa in the first upload. 'Gushing' seems like a witty double entendre to me, but it's true that it's not a direct translation.

They should've had the fat dog get fully /ss/'d. That would've saved it in peoples minds I think

>>120948
lol this dudes gotta read an essay to get a boner

>>120948
>This anime ... don't just objectify magical girls for cheap sexual gratification
It absolutely does. They have about as much depth as the average hentai mahou shoujo. The most significant relationship building they've done so far is people wanting to befriend the girl who doesn't talk because they have Alice Syndrome.

>>120956
Sulphur has been built up a fair bit for not being part of the main villain troupe. She's been shown to be more than capable on her own and takes a slight issue with the PR side of being a Mahou Shoujo. Not to mention her rivalry with Kiwi that's in both IRL and while under magical disguise.

>>120948
> >>120935 probably put it best in that Utena's sadism is in part a way for her to acquire a greater understanding of the totality of those magical girls she's cheered on.

I'm mostly just projecting examples my own sadistic motives there, given Utena so far has been basically an accidental self-insert.
That being said, seeing Azure's mind slowly melting with lust is where the two of us diverge. I loved seeing her fall apart and would have playfully teased and blue-balled her about being the miserable slut she is. Utena was genuinely disgusted by her though, which is understandable if you consider she has a much bigger history and more expectations towards Tres Magia compared to me just wanting to push every button of every girl (especially Sulphur).

>>120958
The other big difference, of course, is that she is a 14 year old girl who is only just exploring her sexuality for the first time - there's nothing abnormal about her having particular expectations, boundaries, and disgust responses to sexual situations that someone more experienced would lack.
Who knows how much of a degenerate she'll be when she gets to your age?

>>120938
I can't speak for others (obviously), but when I read the manga of Immoral Guild, I just found it meaningless.
They head out into the woods and get molested. By accident.
Then they go home.
The cycle repeats and repeats. Because there is no intelligent belligerent force, the molestation is not a temporary falling-behind in a prolonged struggle (against that antagonist), but rather a personal failure. Like a clumsy person might stumble and fall on her face.
But then it happens again and again and again.
It's frustrating. You read of the misadventures of a band of buffoons who lack the faculties to fix their lives.
There's also a boy with them who keeps getting blueballed when his teammates are getting up to sexy stuff around him whereas he is never getting any.

From every perspective, the story was just endlessly frustrating.

>>120956
they absolutely have way more of a personality than any stock and/or gimmick characters
but honestly it's utena that carries the hardest
>>120960
the cycle of tard

Anyways, I went and read the manga up to volume 9, and can say last episode with Azur's recruitment flashback and breaking point was indeed delayed and actually takes place after right Alice's introduction, it's episode 10 in vol 2 and would've been like, episode 4 rather than 6. After that there's some long plot development that'll kick off next week. Some of the things we were shown like Magenta and Alice playing together or Kaoruko's flashback take place way later, in volumes 6/7.
Anyways, I enjoyed it a fair bit. The mindbreak will continue until morale improves.

Two anyways..... that's what happens when I write out stuff separately

You know I was counting the stars on Lord's group, and I think Utena might have them beat after this...

>>120963
I'm not sure if her eyes count as stars or not, But I think her 2* + eye* form losing losing means they aren't

>>120963
[spoiler]Utena can grow as many stars as she pleases, if she gets motivated enough. But Lord Ernorme doesn't motivate her at all. She's just a boring childish woman.

>>120965
Oops. Sorry for my newness. Apparently this image board does not operate by the same tag rules as 4chan (and 4chan X is currently blocking the standard interface. I guess I'll have to deactivate that).
In any case, it's not a massive spoiler, so I'll just let it stand as is.

>>120966
Welcome to kissu! It's good to see a new poster! It uses its own, uhh... what was the word... markup? Assuming you're in the new UI you can see buttons at the bottom to do stuff. Spoiler is the asterisk (*). There's also hotkeys but I can never remember them.
spoiler here

Pretty sure the normal spoiler tags work too don't they

Yeah, >>120965 just forgot to close the spoiler bracket.

>>120968
That new UI was disabled when I played around with the settings. Since I still had my 4chan X quick reply box, I didn't think it mattered. I switched back now. Even if it means that things look different from home. Maybe that's for the best.

>>120970
I didn't forget that. On 4chan, you don't need to close the spoiler. What I forgot was that I wasn't on 4chan.

dumb forgetard
(just kidding, welcome newfriend!)

what's utena's character design say?

>>120971
>On 4chan, you don't need to close the spoiler
Are you sure? It's been like 10 years since I had to type them out manually, but I feel like I've seen spoiler fails from people not closing them.

maybe it uses the idea that tags that don't close never terminate, but I thought it was explicit. Anyways, you only see it used on /a/

Forgot to update: I read the whole thing and damn, it's excellent. It really manages to work with the premise in a myriad ways, it's not simply ecchi, it develops things and takes the premise into every avenue imaginable. For me some of the strongest peaks are chapters 34-35 and ESPECIALLY 51-52, which has a stellar twist combined with a long-prepared culmination. Although the beach, hotel, OTP correction, dungeon, and Alice's game are all parts I enjoyed very much as well. It makes >>120960's comparison even stronger that they go through so many situations and different takes on their encounters. As for characters beyond Utena, I have to say my favorite is Sulfur, not just her initial twist of being a quarreler but also her progression into the single noble uncorrupted magical girl, and the LocoLeber pair.
The changes I mentioned in >>120961 can make it seem as if there's a lot of inconsequential back and forth, but that's due to these chapters being shuffled around or disconnected from what they were building up to, presumably in order to give more relevance to Tres Magia which don't have as great a role in the story pre-Enorme compared to after it.

Oh, there's also an Anonymous that colors panels with the artist's high-contrast palette from his volume covers and other illustrations (ononaka_akihiro, interestingly a lecturer on manga), their work has been compiled into an ex gallery:
https://exhentai.org/g/2809877/b1847a985c/
It's beautiful and has tons of personality. Massive spoilers, of course, do not click unless you don't care about it.

>>120973
Her civilian attire and attitude is very muted, reserved, wearing a long white skirt down to her heels, and shirt of the same color with sweater on top. But her transformed costume is perhaps the one with the greatest frontal exposure, and the metaphor there is obvious. Her horns are bluntly demonic more so than any other character and get even bigger when unleashed, while her large frilled skirt (still exposed at the front) and wings grant her figure a greater presence as leader of the pack. Dark leather and high heels add to her role as dominatrix, too.

>>120974
Yes, I am sure.
And even if you refuse to post on 4chan, you can get confirmation of this since there are plenty of spoilered posts with typos in the closing spoiler tag. They would not be spoilered if the closing spoiler tag was necessary.
Here is an example: https://desuarchive.org/a/thread/263342999/#263343170
>>120975
Spoilers used to be so much fun, back when they still allowed you to play around with them as you pleased, with inline greentexting and whatnot. Nowadays, all they can do is break greentext.

>>120977
Kissu's markup is extermely strong
You can even inject your own CSS as long it doesn't contain URLs

One of our posters knows how to do this pretty well and can create inline images
But I don't really know too much about the possibilities Even though I created it. Also hotkey for spoilers can be seen when mousing over. Alt+8 creates a spoiler

>>120979
AHH SURPRISE BOX

So someone recommended this show to me and I watched the first ep just now and it sure made a strong impression. Everything happens so fast and the next thing you know the mahou shoujos are already getting their asses spanked. Not only that but they get abused TWICE in the same episode. It was too silly for me to jack off to unlike the last ecchi show I watched (Isekai Harem whatever), but it seems like a fun trashy show. I feel like it could get repetitive quickly though, but I'll reserve my judgement until I've watched some more of it.

>>120981
It gets way more lewd

>>120981
>I feel like it could get repetitive quickly
You'd think, but it actually keeps itself quite varied and constantly evolving.

Have you listened to the BDSM ASMR yet?

>>120984
Amateur-tier. I've heard AI-generated art cover ASMR do better.

>>120985
Yeah, it's not an amazing ASMR. Think some people are just more naturally talented at it than others
>Amateur-tier
Is kinda funny to say because Utena's VA is actually a complete amateur https://anidb.net/creator/59120 and despite this I feel she's killing it as Utena.

>>120986
To be fair, I was mostly talking about the severe lack of foley. Her voice is fine, but without any real sound effects to speak of, it feels like a flat and amateurish work, that has a frankly boring premise. The lack of any real noise besides the sound of her voice in particular, makes it feel like something that was recorded in a sound booth, which kind of breaks any illusion of ASMR being in-world. It'd be like watching Star Wars without sound effects, you would think to yourself that it was ridiculous.

>>120987
It sounded better in the manga.

>>120984
>>120986
>>120987
Isn't this just dialogue from the show but edited to sound like ASMR?

ｷﾀ───(ﾟ∀ﾟ)───!!

>>120989
Oh I didn't even listen to it for more than a minute, yeah that's kind of a weird ASMR idea...

>>120991
sage negated

>>120992
*sagfe

>>120993
yes that's my point

>>120908
Utena is wife material.

A more perfect personification of /qa/ you couldn't find

I haven't been this giddy and excited for a seasonal anime since... Bravern last week. And then before that it's been years, normally only watching an old classic can really get me going yet here we are. I absolutely adore the direction this anime received, if merch/bd sales are really breakout like predicted I can't wait to see what the studio's able to do in a second season given a sizeable budget. Given what I've heard about the source material (not spoilers) things only get better and better from here on out, and with the preview of the overarching story going forwards shown here I am fully on board it. At the scene where Sister grabbed Enorme you could really feel the impending doom awaiting her with how they panned out from nothing with that giant closeup to give a sense of scale. It reminds me more of a shot taken out of a horror game than something ecchi/action like this, especially when combined with whatever that sound used was (sounded like a clock into some sort of I don't know what it is). Really leaves a lasting impression of the looming darkness behind Venerita's seemingly innocently evil plan. I love it.

This show is great and I'm sad we're only getting a few more episodes this season. I wish they would have had the funds to do 24 episode season and adapted more of the story. I've been holding off on reading more of the manga until the anime finishes. Since I don't want to spoil myself more than I already have (I got up to the intro to Lord fight).

I know I'll burn through the rest of the chapters in a half day a few weeks from now.

I got several people to watch this show which was kind of surprising since they don't usually share my taste in anime. My friend's girlfriend has already banned him from watching any more of it. I told him not to watch it with her because I knew she'd get jealous. But he wouldn't listen.

I'm so happy they used protection during the intense hand-holding last episode. This show promotes good values.

>>121560
Is the studio even big enough to do that many episodes at once?

>>121561
My worry is despite being a break out hit they won't get back around to doing a season 2 any time soon. Even if they do they might not be able to get the same cast back for it. I really hate when something like this gets adapted then they stop making new episodes right as the story is getting good.

They did 12 on a shoestring budget. I don't see why they couldn't do 12 more with the merchandise, BD and other forms of profit they've made off this project. It has already paid for itself many times over along with boosting the careers of everyone involved.

Sometimes I wish anime in Japan was managed like western cartoons were back in the 90s. Where they'd sometimes do 36+ episodes over the course of a couple of years. Then green light another run of 24+ after a couple of years of showing reruns. I do like the variety we get with so many 12 episode anime series per season. But most of the time I'd trade the 3-4 bottom-tier shows each season for 1 good continuation. There are tons of series that never got a second season that would have done very well simply because it was impossible to get some of the original cast back due to other obligations (or the fact that they waited 10+ years and everyone involved is already dead)

>>121564
This is not about budgeting, but about actual people doing actual work.
They divide into different teams each of which then tackles an episode. Of course, they share some of their labor force. But some key members will be busy from beginning to end of the episode's creation, and can't be employed elsewhere.
The anime industry of today consists of lots of small studios, and when they aren't actively hired to work on something, they work as subcontractors for the studios that are. It's a system designed to mass-produce single-cour anime.
There are still a few giants, of course. But outside of shonen, there is not actually a lot of demand for long-running anime.

>>121565
Shonen and those family anime that have been continously running since like the 70s

The powerlevel stuff in the last episode was dumb.

>>121567
You're just jealous your stars are lacking.

If Utena wore panties, do you think they would gain more stripes the more excited Utena gets?

An interesting touch is that you can see her count going down as punishment progresses. Very subtle, I hadn't noticed it but it's in the manga too. Chuuni not so chun after being molested.
It's a nice collage, don't you think?
>>121567
I do dislike the constant mention of stars in the Gigant and Enorme fights as well as their leadup, it's my least liked part of the story, reminds me of Kaminaki's second half talking about follower count all the time when none of the fights are won based on raw power levels. But, after this it becomes established that power and transformations are based on exploring one's feelings and passions and it flows much better. I also think the impact of Kiwi's first transformation is much weaker than everyone else's later la Verità.
>>121565
That sounds really interesting, do you have any material going deeper into it?

Woops, saved that as png by accident.

>>121572
>>121573
The difference between png and jpg compression is insane. The png one is literally ten times bigger.

>>121572
I do not, unfortunately. Most of my understanding stems from Shirobako, with a few tidbits from discussions with other anons, such as when people asked about split-cour shows.
I remember seeing a chart that nicely visualized the different episodes being worked on in tandem, each demonstrated a by a bar that was several months long (but I can't remember how many months exactly) and, barring accidents, finishing just in time for airing.

>>121574
It is partly the fault of anon (though I don't blame him since he never planned on publishing the png in the first place). I managed to compress it to 6.37 MB, which is of course still too big for its purpose.

>>121572
Whats the point of breaking down a woman like this if she never loses to the cock

>>121580
sounds like a you(ri) problem

>>121580
Cocks do not appear to exist in that universe, so the question of how girls are impregnated is still up in the air.

But the point of breaking a woman like this is so she turns into a bratty loli with a weak butt.

>>121582
AHH SURPRISE BOX!

>>121583
It is a spoiler in context

>>121583
No, that's a legitimate spoiler box. Do not read.

>>121584
Oh. Huh.

dumb surprise boxtard.

>>121587
The mistake is understandable since the content of the spoiler could also be seen in the episode being discussed.

>>121582
This is truer than you think.

>>121589
I don't think scissoring among the clouds can be an explanation for yuri pregnancies. Otherwise, how would they have procreated prior to the invention of aeroplanes?

Or are you suggesting that men were only eradicated after that point?

Although the scene is rather confusing, what happens is that the lolification occurs purely inside of Utena's mind. Other people still see her as spanking an adult woman.
>>121590
Oh, no, I mean about the spoiler. The current scientific consensus is that procreation happens when ahoges touch in an intimate setting. The course of events in the absence of ahoge continues to be a source of heated controversy.

I thought she bent reality like Alice does with her dollhouse.

>>121593
She just hypnotized herself so that her opponent's mindset wouldn't seem so dumb and boring, but instead cute and bratty.

>>121594
i'll live with my headcannon

There's a lot of series that lose their roots after going through their first more serious arc. I'm very grateful this isn't one of them though, understanding how to relax and cool off giving some breath between arcs by giving us some more akogare'ing.

Also Baiser is getting more and more brazen with her horniness...

>>121902
The manga does very much have inbetween chapters of lower stakes or sillier stuff, like Korisu's playground encounter with Magenta that was moved to way earlier, or yesterday's episode whose first half is chapter 21 while the second is from 42. A concern with this is that the future pacing for S2 is kinda screwed, but it's self-evident that they did a good job. Also, Utena's fundamental goal is to keep the back and forth going, that's the entire reason she came to be at odds with Enorme. Her akogare is eternal.
>Also Baiser is getting more and more brazen with her horniness...
An observation most pertinent to the events as they later unfold beyond the adaptation. Consequences await.

>>121908
Coming off the final episode, the inbetween chapters made for a perfect finale to the season that left open the chance of a continuation while also wrapping things up in a satisfying manner. Venarita's scheming and the wider world of Mahou Shoujo are still out there, but for now in Utena's hometown she's satisfied with having achieved an ideal balance. She can peacefully play out her role as the villain while toying with her idols. Glad they didn't try to go for an anime original end so the massive success can be capitalized for a second season.

Although here's hoping that they can upgrade to a better studio with a larger budget in S2, since that was probably my biggest gripe with the anime.

Yep, that's me. I've been known to eat a hamburger now and then and people even say "hey, don't you eat hamburgers?"