No.106864
more like oshiri no unko lamo
No.106876
but doga kobo makes the nice sol feel good anime...
No.108230
For the people keeping up with the season, how well is it holding up for you?
>>106871Clicked to check if it's still #1 and apparently MAL is under emergency maintenance...
No.108235
>>108230still great
i haven't had any reason to give it less appreciation but I don't have much to say other than "so true"
No.108367
>>108230>Clicked to check if it's still #1 and apparently MAL is under emergency maintenance...On anilist it has fallen to #18 after being #1 for a period of time that I didn't pay attention to. It's good, but it's not amazing. But, I thought the same after the first "movie" episode, though, so my opinion hasn't changed much. I still don't understand what it's trying to do because it seems like general idol stuff now instead of pursuing what happened at the very end of the first episode. Is it a serious show or is it silly? Is it a criticism of idol culture or a celebration?
The art is very pretty, especially the eyes as we all know, but I wouldn't put it anywhere near #18 greatest anime of all time
No.108368
Scores are always inflated on these sites
No.108370
>>108367I'm not sure it ever was a criticism. If Ai is a heroine for doing what she does, and every single person out there loves her, then her being an idol is clearly a good thing. She's not portrayed as a victim of the system, nope, she's killed by a mentally ill dude that was manipulated by her evil ex.
Anyways, episode 1 was clearly bait. It's some sorta topical SoL with drama on the side.
No.108371
I've been reading the manga since it started, and honestly I'm surprised by the overwhelmingly positive reception of the anime. I knew it was going to be successful, of course, but I didn't expect it to be this successful. Or maybe the anime is a huge improvement, who knows, I haven't watched it yet.
Also, I wanted to dislike this series because the artist made another series that I hate, but I am forced to begrudgingly admit that it's good, yeah.
No.108372
Anime fans are so burnt out that we worship any series that bucks trends
No.108373
>we
no
No.108374
>>108373Yes, we, this is one of those series you'll get shouted down as a contrarian or crab if you dislike
No.108375
too much meandering, too much exposition, and too little detective work
why does kana hug the spotlight so much i don't care about a random girl's career i care about ai
say what you want about the game, danganronpa v3 pulled the same trick but did it exponentially better purely because it stuck to its guns
it feels cheap when you don't make an effort to follow up on it
No.108376
danganronpa but instead of death elimination means forced impregnation
No.108377
We love Kana here.
No.108380
>>108375Nostalgia Critic syndrome.
No.108384
Anime contrarians are so deluded they'll find any reason to hate an otherwise good show
No.108385
>>108380is that directed at his post or do you mean the stuff hes complaining about is known as nostalgia critic syndrome
No.108386
>>108375Sounds like my intuition that it would be a trashy anime was right.
No.108387
>>108380What does this mean, though?
No.108516
Kind of flipped too hard into the drama category for my tastes. Probably will follow it on stream mostly
No.108517
>>108516In the manga, this reality show arc they're on now was my least favorite part, but it gets better. Mostly it's about the entertainment business, and the revenge plot progresses slowly. So you could say this arc is kuso because reality shows are kuso.
No.108518
>>108516Did you miss the very first episode of this show somehow?
No.108520
the problem is that the characters are not really doing anything. As the other anonymous said, Aqua is just doing some dumb gig(filler plot) and Ruby is trying to form a band(filler plot). Though there's nothing bad about it and I liked it, but it's not like I want to watch it on my own if the stream is going to have it
No.108521
>>108517So this is the third arc... what's the fourth one like? Since that's the most it'll cover, apparently.
No.108523
>>108520american media literacy sure is something
No.108524
people using "filler" for anything that isn't just pushing the main plot point is one of the worst developments in media discussion
No.108525
>>108522Ehh, I dunno, it seems to celebrate just as much as it tries to criticize. For one, any criticism of the idol industry is incompatible with praise of Ai. It's like saying "war is bad and awful, but this soldier right here is a hero and we should all praise him". If war enables heroism, then there is heroism in war, and that's not a criticism.
No.108526
>>108517I agree. When I was reading this arc I kept hoping it would end already and they would get on with the "main" (revenge) plot, but then the stage play arc ended up being my favorite so far.
No.108527
>>108522Whatever you say, Ryukishi.
No.108528
>>108522I liked it when it was critical, but at the moment it's just praising or passive
No.108529
>>108522It's really not that critical, from episode one I've said that people calling it a critique of the industry are somewhat misguided. Most of what it's been critical of so far has been just obsessive fans or those people unassociated with the industry. The most critical it's been about the industry itself has been with the shoddy handling of the manga live action. Aside from that it's put the people working in showbiz up on pedestals. More it's acting as an argument in defense of them than anything.
No.108530
If you want to criticize a system, then the critique has to be systematic. If you focus your story on people that can endure, triumph, and do things right without changing anything about the general situation, then the system isn't broken. If you have a main cast with people that are part of the industry and clearly good, like Taishi and Miyako, while the only serious antagonist so far is an exceptionally evil person, that is not a critique of the industry. It's not Perfect Blue.
No.108531
>>108523What does this even mean? Is this a new "reading comprehension" baste reply
No.108532
Does anyone think anything heavily advertised and celebrated is gonna be a real, heavy critique? Its like when people trip over themselves to praise hollywood movies that criticize "the establishment" or "the system" as if it's not part of it
No.108534
>>108532Well for Hollywood some of those movies actually were heavily critical of the system, but in a more post-mortem way after the system had already undergone change post Harvey Weinstein.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cLf0i-kYio No.108535
>>108522>>108524I think it's funny people tend to have gotten into media as escapism from the stresses of whatever but media is just as frustrating to people
No.108536
>>108529Episode one was pretty clearly about how entertainment industry talent is disingenuous, risky and discardable. The argument of it being disingenuous is pushed in the drama shoot arc.
Currently, it's kind of pivoted to something else entirely... I assume it will be back to normal in a few episodes and try to elaborate on one of the other themes in the pilot
No.108537
>>108524It's easy to dismiss criticism like that with a simple comparison to something where the opposite is usually thought of as the case. Like with side quests and RPGs.
No.108538
>>108536It's on an anti-Anti-arc.
No.108540
>>108536I guess those are part of the message too, but I found more of the criticism to be directed towards the audience than the industry. Rather than the disingenuous nature of Ai being a fault, the anime praised her for it and ran defense for the idea that there is nothing wrong with it.
No.108566
>>108538If that's the case, then it's not helped by everyone but Akane being able to manage, and her ignoring the advice she received. Makes it look like a personal flaw rather than a real issue.
No.108590
I should preface by saying that I do like the show and am looking forward to the next episode, but i dont think the show is all that good nor does it do anything all that special in its shallow critique, but I think the issue isnt with that but instead because its trying to be too many things at once and it all suffers as a result. the first act hook was fine but now it would be much better if it just kept the working slice of life bits, the reincarnated bit doesnt feel all that necessary but I can see why its there. The rest makes the show feel likes its constantly jumping around and cant decide what its trying to be. I also hate that they are going to have the two main characters not realize that they already know eachother until much later, this sort of plot point introduced and every once and awhile brought up but its clearly going nowhere is infuriating.
At least the girls are cute.
No.108614
>>108590I see it as having three main threads going on, each of which could've been their own manga:
A) dude seeks revenge for his mother's death
B) teens finding their way through the entertainment industry
C) expo about said industry
Apparently it's got romcom stuff as well, iunno.
Anyways, the issue is that the main hook is A, it's the climax of episode 1, but the story is actually centered on B and C and that's why I think its advertising was disingenuous. You always have to go into a work knowing what it's about, because if you have the wrong expectations you'll come out upset that it wasn't what you were looking for, but this time
the show itself and everything surrounding it plastered Ai's face everywhere it could and is now failing to deliver on it. I assume that's why
>>108520 called it filler, even though... it's not, not at all.
For example, for comparison, Perfect Blue doesn't stop every ten minutes to dump some exposition on you, themed kirara doesn't have super srs dramatic character arcs, and something like Pompo had its protagonist's goals and his learning about the industry perfectly aligned, as well as being more of a pure celebration. OnK indeed tries to do everything at once, which is why negative reviews keep saying something along the lines of it being unfocused.
Also, I don't think any of the characters so far are as interesting as Ai was, and that's a shame.
No.109485
The reveal of Akane having been a genius actor all along is super weird. She can perfectly replicate the personality of someone who died like fifteen years ago, but fails so bad at a reality show that she becomes suicidal??? I can't take it seriously
No.109562
>>109485It had a good first episode and a meh rest, its only worshipped because of that and politics.
AOTD. Give me a break.
No.109563
if lots of people like something and you don't, then you're missing the point. Or you just don't care for the point.
No.109564
>>109563Lots of people like Nintendo and they ABUSE their fans
No.109566
>>109485she just can't bee herself
No.109567
>>109563Ow! My Balls! confirmed as AOTD.
No.109569
>>109563Then why don't you tell us?
No.109570
>>109569There hasn't been a good psychological thriller in a decade
No.109571
>>109570Is Oshi no Ko psychological thriller? I mean it's certainly thriller, but what's the psychological part of it. Or do I not know what it means...
No.109572
>>109571In a pretty flexible definition. The viewpoints and disorders of the characters create an uncertain narrative of mystery involving the fates of others.
Perhaps better to say that it's a drama/industry thriller. But "thriller" has been left in the backlight for the decade. Often just worked into battle shonen like Shingeki no Kyojin. There hasn't been a real seinen-like thriller since, as far as I can tell, 2014 with Erased[Boku dake ga Inai Machi]
No.109573
>>109572What disqualifies stuff like Odd Taxi, Summertime Render, and Tengoku Daimakyou? The lack of a fixed goal?
No.109574
>>109573you don't have to agree with me you know. You can state a counter argument
No.109575
Probably Odd Taxi. It also did well and targetted the same demographic, but less marketting and connectability
Summertime is kind of isolating not the same. Tengoku kinda sucks
No.109576
>>109564Nintendo treats "the fans" like shit because "the fans" aren't the ones driving profits.
Nintendo wants to be the video game equivalent of Disney. It makes games for casuals, kids, and casuals who played Nintendo games when they were kids. Hardcore fans are a periphery demographic; they don't
not want them, but they're not going to bend over backwards to appeal to them either.
It's why they re-release the same games over and over again. They don't expect
you to buy SM64 ten times, they expect dad to buy a new edition of a game he hasn't played in decades, introducing it to junior who can then continue the cycle a few decades later.
No.109578
>>109570>>109572Hmm. Well, one of my biggest issues is that it spends most of its time not being a thriller. There's only one mystery: who killed Ai? The rest is drama, comedy, but not thriller. Much more of a soap opera than anything, unless I'm using the term wrong.
No.109580
>>109574I would but I kinda forgot what makes a thriller a thriller...
In my mind when I think thriller I think of suspense and a mystery of sorts. With some sort of end goal that has high stakes for the protagonist in one way or another. What had me on the fence with asking about Tengoku Daimakyou is that there's no real main antagonist in it, and more it can be seen as somewhat of a post-apocalyptic survival story than just a thriller. Odd Taxi fits the bill to me as thriller enough that it makes sense, but I'm not exactly sure how to specify why. Although on the other hand I don't really have any doubts about Summertime Render, and think it's almost certainly a thriller (and good) since it consists of a mystery, an opposition force to the MCs goal, and the stakes of everyone dying. I probably just need to read up on what makes something a member of each genre so I can have a better idea of what I'm talking about.
The psychological part I disagree with because I think Perfect Blue with how there's an aspect of confusion and doubt within what the viewer is seeing. Something that doesn't exactly follow a logical pattern and messes with our brains because of it. Oshi no Ko so far has been pretty straightforward with its thriller so I contest it being given that label.
No.109581
I'm probably using the term wrong. But I really don't think it's a thriller, the plot so far is very straightforward, I would not call it uncertain.
As in: dude wants to get into acting, so he goes to the acting place, acts, and it goes well. That's what happened with the main jobs they've had so far.
No.109583
>>109572Akudama Drive
ID INVADED
I guess both of those lean more towards josei than seinen. And neither of them hit it off that big on social media, although the latter did have a pretty good following on /a/.
No.109584
>>109583I thought Akudama Drive took off, although maybe there was a bias in who I was talking to about it.
No.109586
>>109583Neither has anything to do with josei manga.
No.109591
>>109586That's because they're original works.
No.109593
>>109485bloody ontopic sager
No.109615
>>109591Yes, so the concept of manga magazine demographics doesn't apply to them.
No.109693
>>109570I like this post because it's just ten words but basically everything it said was disputed:
>good>psychological>thriller>decade No.110065
It's an idol anime.
No.110081
Oshi no PLAP PLAP PLAP GET PREGNANT GET PREGNANT GET PREGNANT GET PREGNANT
No.110082
>>110079the word PEEMAN makes me lol
No.110419
kana is a fun character to watch. Glad they pivoted to her, or maybe the manga was always like this
No.110430
I think it was a pivot, but it's probably there in the source material early on. The two main characters have that reincarnation thing going, but other than that they're very bland and they don't even make use of that trait. Ruby is just a forgettable idiot with a very generic genki personality. They really could have done some emotional stuff with her previous sickly life being cut short and the joy of getting another chance. They could have given her extra backstory about her time at the hospital to make her very sympathetic. She could even have a dream to be an idol that performs for sick children or something else heart-wrenching, but no, Ruby barely even exists as a character.
Aqua is also uninteresting. Just like Ruby, he makes no use of the special circumstance that was shown in the first episode. At best you can say he's better at manipulation than average, but it's not like he has any amazing keikaku doori moments. I assumed the doctor thing was going to play a part at some point. I also thought Ai was going to survive at the end of the first episode because of that, but instead his is also a reincarnation without benefit.
So... what about Kana? She was shown early on as a fellow actor in a scene and she was very cute with the charm of her adorable smugness that was shattered shortly afterwards, showing her vulnerability that makes her immediately appealing to the viewer in both entertainment value and empathetic bonding. Not only does Kana make you smile and laugh, but you see her weakness and you cheer for her to overcome it. No other character has that, despite the first episode's climax.
Maybe the writer realized Kana was more fun to write about than the "main characters", and so a girl that appeared in a minor part of the story managed to also go to the same school after a time skip. Some other girls were introduced, maybe to make it more apparent that there really is an idol industry out there that the main character is supposed to care about, but again it happened to be the case that Kana was still far more interesting than them and the story returned to her.
Maybe the manga is different and has a lot of stuff for other characters, but it can't be accidental that Kana is routinely the focus of the anime. It seems Season 2 is already known to be coming at some point, so let's look forward to more Kana.
No.110431
Kana curbstomping Akane on stage!
No.110432
If they're making a S2. I may do an arson attack in japan
No.110433
>>108522Remember when people thought it was gonna perfect blue the anime
No.110434
>>110433Perfect Blue is anime.
No.110435
>>110433I was saying from the start that it barely felt that critical of the industry and more was fanning over idols than anything, and people laughed.
Well who's laughing now?
No.110436
>>110434I mean like TV series
No.110437
>>110430aqua is OP, he just waltzes in and does whatever he wants and everyone loves him
i agree that the only vulnerable character is kana alongside akane and from reading the general thread a couple times it looks like a shipping war between those two is their main topic
like apparently there's a part where kana just vanishes and it's only akane don't ask me why
>>110435>Well who's laughing now?me, i called it
said even ep1 spent most of its time not being a thriller
No.110440
>>110437oh no, does it going into terrible romcom tropes stuffed behind industry drama. That's worse than pure industry drama
No.110441
>>110440i dunno not gonna read it lmao
you can go and see how garbage their thread is and it's all mangafags
No.110442
who's they
No.110443
>>110441well if the fanbase is bad then i don't really care. it's your own fault if you want to harm your mental health over 4chan postsers
No.110444
>>110443i think looking at what a fanbase fixates on can be useful when it comes to figuring out what the focus of a work is even if the fanbase is terrible
that one's all about kanafags and akanesisters and rubychads so i'm not at all surprised by how the show ended up
No.110445
>>110444imo, you're just making your life suck
No.110446
>>110445nah it was just like fifteen minutes it's okay
No.110447
>>110435Well, I thought it was going to be critical, or at least more "ugly". You know, since it had
assassination in it. Some of it exists and it's certainly a bit more realistic than something like Idolmaster, but overall it's still very SoL.
Looking back at the episodes, whether or not an episode was good to me depends on how much Kana was in it. The other stories just weren't interesting to me. Kana almost feels like she's in the wrong show since the atmosphere is so different when she's around.
>>110438Kana thumbnail... she's finally made it!
No.110449
>>110444/a/ is so desperate to replicate the DitF shitstorm imo
No.110455
>>110430I feel like the manga is probably the same. Pretty much everything that doesn't work in the anime would be a lot more acceptable in manga format. Going an entire season recruiting one girl at a time feels slow and disjointed, but a manga can get away with short arcs that don't involve the whole cast. The detective stuff didn't come to anything here, but I can see how it's used to string together events in a much longer work where the payoff can be way down the road. Ruby's lack of focus likely wouldn't stand out as much if the season didn't end before getting to her arc.
Kana was clearly the secondary heroine from the start and it makes sense the part of the story about assembling the group focused on her the most. Ruby already had her relationships and dreams laid out early and the big developments there are too important to the plot to reveal this early. If it were made with a 24 episode anime in mind, you could cut the Akane stuff and recruit Mem-cho through a Ruby arc, make Aqua's first clue more substantial which causes Ruby's past identity to be revealed as the mid-season twist, then you've got your love triangle, your mystery, and your idol story all set up for tandem escalation and resolution in the second half.
I don't like reincarnation plots in general, but they work okay here for establishing interesting personalities and character dynamics. Aqua is pursuing a very different life than before, so the only time his medical knowledge was really relevant was when he was a little kid with no realistic way of treating a fatal stab wound. It's more about personality, he's disinterested because he's an old man who already lived his life and cares more about avenging injustices against young dreamers than anything related to himself. Ruby's backstory is sort of the opposite in that she didn't feel she got to live at all and now she gets an amazing second chance where everything goes her way. I also think her wanting to be an idol for Sensei is way better than some cliched thing about sick kids and fits well with the theme the series seems to be setting up about doing it for one person.
>>110444It's really not. Fanbases gravitate towards topics that are easy to repeat day in and day out. You can only discuss plot events so much, but you can waifuwar 24/7/365 to keep your home alive. You're a retard for putting any weight into what people who use newfag suffixes waste their days repeating.
No.110467
>>110455Well, it's true that Aqua's general apathy could be seen as a trait that carried over, but it's not
interesting. It doesn't set him apart from a similar person that didn't experience such an event. I guess what I mean is that I was expecting such a major thing to have a major effect on the story.
I could see how my ideas for Ruby would be cliche, but at least it would be something. As it is she should be someone in the little corner of a promotional poster instead of front and center. She has good interactions with Kana, but so does everyone. Kana is carrying this show!
No.110470
>>110467>I was expecting such a major thing to have a major effect on the storyIt's the source of the entire detective angle which fuels all his forays into acting, so I'd say that's pretty major. If that seems insignificant to you, it's because the entire season was just setting the stage. That may not make the anime any better, but the plot points themselves can't be deemed pointless until things actually start moving.
No.110471
Do not click on this picture unless you want major spoilers.
>>110455>>110470I think Ruby's story would have more weight if it focused more on their two deaths, if she were the one keeping alive the memory of her mother with her passion, or if she went out of their way to help other ill kids, but that's not the case. Everyone and their mother remembers Ai, and Ruby's goals are the same as any other character's: to be a great performer. There's nothing in her character that only she could have, a unique trait that
requires death to be justified, she's just a genki girl with regular motivations. It doesn't stand out, and it doesn't really matter for whose sake she's doing it if she isn't doing something different.
Aqua
does have something special, Ai's death motivates him to go out and look for stuff, that's very much true. Sadly, it's kind of neutralized. Acting is supposed to be the means through which he explores the industry, but effectively it's the ends. Being an actor is the least stealthy path, and arguably the one with the most pointless effort. A solid chunk of the time he spends acting or doing stuff like pretending to be Pieyon is time he could've spent socializing with film crews and getting info out of them, which would've been much more straightforward if he was an assistant to any sort of manager or a manager himself, and he barely goes out of his way to intermingle with important people. Could've gone to parties/events/anything, could've singled out relevant figures and sought them out to convince them of this or that, could've lied his ass off about whatever with how godly of an actor he appears to be. But, the people he is shown interacting with the most are other performers, I don't see him as being very proactive in that sense, and the detective angle is more theory than practice.
I disagree in that he had already lived out his life (dude died at 30, not 70), but I can see what you mean in how he intervened to save Akane.
>the entire season was just setting the stageSerious manga spoilers:
so we're at chapter 40, and the father appears in 72, which would be towards the end of the second season, right? But from what I'm getting Aqua has yet to make his move, and it took until chapter 122 (the last one, which I just read) for the two siblings to fully realize who the other is. And they turn it around, making Aqua renounce revenge while setting up the twist that Ruby had the exact same motivations? I'm lacking context, but in any case it's... eh. Honestly, it seems more of a subplot to me, one that advances very, very slowly.
No.110472
I also want to say that Aqua is without a doubt a reincarnated protagonist:
¥praised as a kid and respected by the director
¥salvages the dorama by making others act better
¥successfully gets into the reality show, praised again
¥rescues Akane from suicide and fixes her public image
¥makes her fall in love with him
¥manages to pass off as Pieyon even though they look nothing alike, helps the girls do their best
He's unmatched, breezing through everything.
No.110473
Isn't he a former doctor who graduated from an elite university and has been fixated on revenge for something like 10 years, plus 30 additional years of life experience compared to the people around him who are emotionally immature kids?
No.110475
>>110473How many doctors do you know that are peerless actors?
No.110476
>>110475Being a doctor doesn't make you a good actor. Being smart (as doctors tend to be) and having the mind of a grown man, being in showbiz from an early age, and having a keikaku that involves rising up the ranks in showbiz probably would, though.
No.110477
>>110476>as doctors tend to beI've met a decent amount of doctors, and about half of them were average or worse. I've gotten wrong diagnoses, and two docs were outright negligent. I know this because the other docs told me.
>having the mind of a grown manNone of the other adults are particularly smart.
>being in showbiz from an early age So was every other character, and he's still better than them by miles.
>having a keikakuWhich he doesn't execute, see
>>110471.
You can also take a look at all the other real life, even more experienced authors that say stupid shit, ruin their lives, or get caught up in awful scandals. There's nothing to justify how insanely capable Aqua is.
No.110478
>>110471>I disagree in that he had already lived out his lifeIt's something he said himself in one of his monologues. Whether you agree or not, he doesn't feel like he needs a second chance at life and that's why he has to be strongarmed by the girls into doing things the less boring way.
Not reading the spoilers, but I don't have a lot of faith in serialized manga to progress the plot at a reasonable pace so I'll admit I might be giving it too much of a benefit of the doubt expecting it to actually weave all the plot elements together.
No.110479
>>110477Do you actually think it's unreasonable to assume that, on average, doctors are more intelligent and disciplined than the average person?
Point is: he is established as a smarter-than-average character; he is driven because he understands, with his adult brain, that to achieve his goals he needs to become a good actor (compare this with child actors who do it because their parents make them do it, because they like getting attention, etc.) Yes, he has the "MC is better than everyone" thing going on, but I don't see how it's surprising that he outperforms his peers by leaps and bounds. Also I'm pretty sure Akane and the glasses guy are supposed to be better actors than Aqua, no?
No.110481
Aqua is an above average actor with good social skills and some tricks to fake it till he makes it. He knows how to problem solve and do some good tricks, but is getting the gigs for his pretty face. He can more efficiently put in effort because he's literally 40 years old, but Kana and Akane have parts of them that are genius... their social skills are poor though
No.110484
>>110479I'd be okay with him being extra smart if he came across situations that challenged him, but every event that others couldn't deal with he has solved effortlessly. Dude has no weaknesses, he doesn't make any consequential mistakes. He's not just smarter than average, he does a better job at PR than the reality crew (and gets off scot-free), he's a better director than one at the drama, and they rewrite scripts to fit his performances because he's just that good.
As for Akane, I can't take her seriously because of how hard she flopped at the reality show. Good actors don't cave in like that, and her ability to perfectly imitate Ai afterwards is an incoherent asspull. It's beyond legendary for any performer to act like a long-dead person so well that it shakes their son to the core, it simply doesn't make sense for an unstable teen of all people to be able to pull that off.
>>110478Alright, I can accept that being something I glossed over. It's true that he doesn't spend any time having fun.
No.121313
KANA!She's the real star of the show which I think I said in this thread last year. Season 2 will hopefully focus even more on her.
>>121307An AI image of Ai, huh. Ehhh...
Well anyway, it diverged a lot from the original premise, yeah. That's why I think Kana was able to steal the show so easily. I don't care about either of the twins at all.
No.121315
>>121313i'm told she has a rather hard life going forward
lots of romantic competition with the other one